Panzer-Pionier shoulder boards

[Maxoumilitaria]

Hi guys,

I know there are some very experienced shoulder boards and Panzer collectors on WAF and I have some questions about 2 very similar pairs of Panzerpionier boards that came out for sale in the last months:
- On the Collector’s guild: http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/Photos/H032473.html
- During Ratisbon’s last auction: http://www.ratisbons.com/11th-Contem...0281c55618a908


For those who don’t have a login on Ratisbon’s, I posted the pictures below.

Both have the very same construction and display the same Oberfeldwebel rank. The only difference I can spot concerns the pipes, which prongs are not made in the same materials.

Now I’m finally getting to my questions: is there a “known” source for these? Do we know if those are coming from the same soldier? If I think of the number of soldiers who wore the rank of Oberfeldwebel in the Panzerpionier Lehr unit, it must be very very low…

Thanks for any inputs you might have about these boards !

Thanks

Max

[Maxoumilitaria]

3rd pic

[afrikasandman]

Max,

These boards are truly very scare to come across and they should demand the utmost scrutiny. That said, I think we are seeing many scarcer items coming to market as the older collectors are letting stuff go.

I have never owned a single or pair of these but do know there are some amazing repros out there. Its the main reason I have never bought a single or a pair of these. It makes me a bit more skeptical with these being Lehr boards. I don't know how many cadre were assigned to the Pz Pioneer school but surely there were around 100 or maybe more?

I want to say they are fine but there is just something that isn't sitting right with me on these. Its likely because I have never handled one let alone a pair but im just very skeptical on rare boards like these. Would like to hear from Chris V and or Glen on these to get their take. Its probably me just being overly cautious. Matt

[Schulterklappen]

Pz. Pionier

These straps are well made; almost "too" well made, more like a high quality tailor made piece than issue straps in some respects. The fleck piping was a later thing and earlier pieces were almost an ad-hoc thing. You would see straps and boards with white and black twist piping and officer's with that type and silver and black twist piping. Also, just by them having the "L" cypher on them, the price goes up substantially.

The owner will be the final judge as to how they feel concerning them be original. My thoughts are more a subjective gut feeling than anything based on hard evidence.

[galizien41]

I have doubts. I think they are well made reproductions.

[galizien41]

http://virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=3432

These look textbook to me. Shameless plug.

[Military Antiques Toronto]

The ones on the collectors guild I believe we're the ones sold via my website with collars to a customer in Japan. For some reason he sent the boards there only and I assume kept the collars for himself. The came from a local rabbid collector of German Militaria who has been parting with stuff via my store
Dave

[afrikasandman]

http://virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=3432

These look textbook to me. Shameless plug.

One has to do what they can to help sales these days

[afrikasandman]

There are some really good points brought up here and im with Glenn that they almost appear to be too good but that isn't a reason to disregard them. Im truly on the fence about them but don't want to slam them either way. They would always be questionable for me without rock solid provenance.

Someone felt they were good and bid some decent money on them, so as long as they are happy with them that is all that really matters.

Matt

[longislandercjv]

Are they repros? Good question.
From what I can see from the photos, the black & white
"Flecked" piping looks original.
(I have never seen reproduction black & white"Flecked" piping)

The "L" cyphers are original as well, but added (IMO).
There were a number of variations of the Gothic "L" cyphers,
including these pictured.(aluminum with a maker mark on the reverse;
2 aluminum prongs as well. These are either pre or early wartime made)
Apparently someone found a horde of them in Europe since they are readily
available on Ebay and dealers lists.

"Panzer-Pioniere-Lehr" ? Did the unit even exist? Perhaps OSS or Steve Androsko
could provide information on them.

I've owned several pairs of Pz.Pio. straps and several singles over the years.
They ARE rare, but I would pass on these.
I agree with Jerry that the pair on Mike Davis' website are original.
Glen is spot on about each collector must make up his own mind, and be happy with his purchase.
Hobbies are supposed to be fun, aren't they??

[Kengir]

If they truly did belong to a Lehr, it could explain why there isn't as much wear and tear as you would expect...

The construction looks very good to me. I'd probably have to pass myself though, but simply because I was unsure.. not because I thought for a fact that they're fakes.

-Jeremy

[pauke]

flecked piping

Regarding the flecked piping, circa 1980 there was a militaria dealer from New Orleans who frequented the OVMS show (perhaps Dave?) and on one occasion he had a great length of this original Pz. Pionier style piping wound up on the original cardboard it came on. Perhaps 10-15 meters of it were available and at the time I thought it was for some Allgemeine SS insignia as Pz. Pio. insignia were about unknown back then. I do not know if it sold at that show but there was the potential to make up scores of straps and pipe wrappers to satisfy many collectors' fantasies. The straps in question have me doubtful based on the overall construction, but the piping is likely original.

[echoe]

lehr Pionier

"....on one occasion he had a great length of this original Pz. Pionier style piping wound up on the original cardboard it came on"

" "Panzer-Pioniere-Lehr" ? Did the unit even exist? Perhaps OSS or Steve Androsko
could provide information on them."

both posts make very good points.
for me, this pair is doubtful.

[brooksbz]

"Panzer-Pioniere-Lehr" ? Did the unit even exist? .

Panzer-Lehr-Pionier-Bataillon 130