Use of captured French fabrics for tropical uniforms?

[Hptm. Fuhrmann]

I'm playing with a theory right now and I'm curious to know if anyone has some further knowledge of this subject.

Some time ago, while handling some post war French M47 uniforms, I already noticed that a lot of these uniforms are made from a cotton fabric that's almost identical to the one you would expect to see on WW2 German tropical uniforms, even the color shade fits really well (guess that's where fakers get their fabric from when trying to fake caps).
Here's a close-up of my M47s sleeve:


Now I noticed an auction on eBay a few weeks ago that featured a WW2 French uniform set made of exacly the same fabric:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/391378430274

So I thought - is it possible that, after France's capitulation, German producers were supplied with this kind of captured French cotton-twill fabric to make tropical uniforms for the upcoming african campaign? France surrendered in June 1940, the first German troops arrived in Africa in February 1941. As I've seen some tropical garments with 1940 depot stamps, I guess production began in late 1940, so time-wise it's also plausible.

What are your thoughts?

[Grubhy]

"So I thought - is it possible that, after France's capitulation, German producers were supplied with this kind of captured French cotton-twill fabric to make tropical uniforms for the upcoming african campaign?"

Yes, they were. This is well known fact since at last two decades now. This book has been published in 1996.

Jose R. Figueroa

Tropical Headgear of the German Wehrmacht in WWII: Pictorial Reference Guide Volume 2. Paperback – 1996

51BE5N1MPWL._SX339_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

It is well know book and it not cost a lot:
https://www.amazon.com/Tropical-Head.../dp/0963720112

I'm playing with a theory right now and I'm curious to know if anyone has some further knowledge of this subject.

Some time ago, while handling some post war French M47 uniforms, I already noticed that a lot of these uniforms are made from a cotton fabric that's almost identical to the one you would expect to see on WW2 German tropical uniforms, even the color shade fits really well (guess that's where fakers get their fabric from when trying to fake caps).
Here's a close-up of my M47s sleeve:


Now I noticed an auction on eBay a few weeks ago that featured a WW2 French uniform set made of exacly the same fabric:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/391378430274

So I thought - is it possible that, after France's capitulation, German producers were supplied with this kind of captured French cotton-twill fabric to make tropical uniforms for the upcoming african campaign? France surrendered in June 1940, the first German troops arrived in Africa in February 1941. As I've seen some tropical garments with 1940 depot stamps, I guess production began in late 1940, so time-wise it's also plausible.

What are your thoughts?

[Tim O'Keefe]

"So I thought - is it possible that, after France's capitulation, German producers were supplied with this kind of captured French cotton-twill fabric to make tropical uniforms for the upcoming african campaign?"

Yes, they were. This is well known fact since at last two decades now. This book has been published in 1996.

Jose R. Figueroa

Tropical Headgear of the German Wehrmacht in WWII: Pictorial Reference Guide Volume 2. Paperback – 1996

[ATTACH]3928263[/ATTACH]

It is well know book and it not cost a lot:
https://www.amazon.com/Tropical-Head.../dp/0963720112

Where exactly in this excellent reference is there any mention of this ?

[Grubhy]

Page 135.

[Hptm. Fuhrmann]

If this is such a well known fact, why didn't I find anything about this on the internet and why didn't anyone reply to this thread back when I made it almost a year ago?
Is this fact stated in any other books or do you assume that everyone here owns all the books there are on this subject?

[FESTUNGBREST]

Pre 45:, the AK used all sorts of captured uniform parts. British,French M-35 issue shirts, dust protection and work clothing M35 french Motorized "Surtout" combos, gloves,you name it. M35
Tropical helm etc...

Post 45: fakers used M47 French cotton duck material. Look up M47 French Indochina/Algerian War
Windjacket for example. S similarities to Grbj Mountain Jacke. I could also cite some great source of
canvas but i will no go there here. The rubberized M47 Motorcycle troops duster ( same aspect os German design but easily identifiable to a collector is another example of the adopted similarities of inherited German design, many produced in French Occupied zone in post war Germany such as the Manurhin 7.65 PPk.

Fakers just filled the gap and proceeded in the natural progression.

[Grubhy]

You blame me for that?

If this is such a well known fact, why didn't I find anything about this on the internet and why didn't anyone reply to this thread back when I made it almost a year ago?
Is this fact stated in any other books or do you assume that everyone here owns all the books there are on this subject?

[Hptm. Fuhrmann]

You blame me for that?

I didn't blame anyone for anything, I'm just curious if this 'fact' is really that 'well known' in this community as you make it out to be. I would love to hear some statements from other users on this matter.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Page 135.

Page #135 only mentions that the KM cap featured on that page was made in France using French materials and made to German specifications. This was the more common occurance with Foreign made (non German) uniforms/caps etc. It does not mention that French material was sent to Germany and used in making tropical uniforms prior to the DAK arrival in Afrika. Though i don't doubt this did happen on occasion. Thousands of solders in the 15th Pz Div were issued captured Dutch made sunhelmets in April 1941 which is the earlist date i'm aware of the DAK using captured equipment that was issued to them en masse.

[Johnny R]

The Germans used captured textiles and equipment since the very beginning of the war until the very end. That they used captured textiles and clothing in Africa has been known for a long time by some collectors, but everything in the old days was passed from word of mouth or in little collector newsletters like Der Gauleiter, Until the later 1980s, aside from a handful of general references there really were no reference books like there are now. When I started collecting in the 1970s, WWII German vets would come to shows and explain all kinds of things like this to collectors. Sadly those days are gone.

[derka]

I agree with Tim and Johnny.
I'm not aware of the use of captured French materials for manufacturing tropical german uniforms, but it may did occur.
I always wondered why corduroy material was used for producing some tropical Heer breeches, but i don't know if it could have been initialy french materials.
If someone have informations about this point ?
That said, it is a fact that german units involved in North Africa used some Beute pieces of french uniforms, for instance for underwear like short trousers, shirts or pullovers.
Here are illustrations (thanks Ludo !) of the use of the regular French jersey sweater modèle 1936 :









derka

[pauke]

Edelweiss

At least we now have photographic evidence of a French Beute sweater with an Edelweiss on it worn in North Africa. Trying to sell that without the photo would be a laugh.

[Hptm. Fuhrmann]

With all the written and photographic evidence, there is no doubt about the use of captured clothing parts and equipment like french shirts, dutch pith helmets or british khaki uniforms, but I guess getting some evidence on the use of captured raw materials is a harder case to crack.

I remember a scene from a documentary on the western campaign 1940 that dealt with the spoils of war and showed a french trainyard with box cars full of bundles of cloth and other materials. I can't think of a reason why the germans wouldn't use every piece of material they could get out of france, especially keeping in mind that at that stage of the war, germany basically had no reliable source for raw cotton anymore.
I also think it's possible that the germans not only used the already existing fabric but had the french weaving mills make more of the stuff with the remaining stocks of cotton they had.
This could also be a reason why the variety in fabrics used in german tropical uniforms increased over time, the french stocks just slowly dried out.

As the link in the starting post is already long dead, here is a current one showing a french jacket in that particular khaki cotton twill fabric:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vtg-French...-/372073800171

[Johnny R]

I suspect in OKH records at NARA you would find inventory lists of foreign materials taken and used for the war effort. These records exist in great detail for the Waffen SS especially later in the war but I have not seen comparable Heer documents published-no one may have looked for them.

[GAMS1]

With all the written and photographic evidence, there is no doubt about the use of captured clothing parts and equipment like french shirts, dutch pith helmets or british khaki uniforms, but I guess getting some evidence on the use of captured raw materials is a harder case to crack.

I remember a scene from a documentary on the western campaign 1940 that dealt with the spoils of war and showed a french trainyard with box cars full of bundles of cloth and other materials. I can't think of a reason why the germans wouldn't use every piece of material they could get out of france, especially keeping in mind that at that stage of the war, germany basically had no reliable source for raw cotton anymore.
I also think it's possible that the germans not only used the already existing fabric but had the french weaving mills make more of the stuff with the remaining stocks of cotton they had.
This could also be a reason why the variety in fabrics used in german tropical uniforms increased over time, the french stocks just slowly dried out.

As the link in the starting post is already long dead, here is a current one showing a french jacket in that particular khaki cotton twill fabric:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vtg-French...-/372073800171

You can find these french jackets "adapted" in german style with 4 pockets like a tropical jacket , tailor made .Nice looking !
I had one NCO like this , found in Bavaria .Still with the french stamping Inside .

Nick