Intriguing GD Sturmgeschütz unit member

[Maxoumilitaria]

Hi guys,

I recently found that intriguing picture of a GD soldier. What I see:
- The collar tabs show a dark Waffenfarbe: it's either red or black. Of course red is the most likely.
- Dark shoulder straps: either dark green or black. These show a light Waffenfarbe: I would say probably pink or white.

These points get me a bit confused as I don't see an obvious answer. These shoulder boards could be:
- dark green with white piping --> this would indicate an early GD infantry unit member who got transfered to Sturmgeschütz but kept his boards
- black with pink piping --> would indicate a former member of GD panzer unit
- black with white piping --> would indicate a former member of the FBB

In all of these, I hardly imagine a enlisted man serving in the GD StuG and keeping boards from his former unit when getting his new StuG uniform.

I hope you guys can help me out !

Thanks in advance!

Max

[brooksbz]

Looks like a pioneer.

[Hans Kristian]

I would say that it could be Black, red or kornblumenblau (medical).

I have pictures of medical personel with light (probably white) piping on the shoulderboard and dark piping on caps and vice-versa.

I will try to find them when I get home tomorrow.

Best regards,

Hans Kristian

[luypaert t]

Waffenfarbe

Hello,

A second picture of this Grenadier shows clearly that the Waffenfarbe on his straps is not white. He wears a white shirt and the colour of the Waffenfarbe is much darker.
Most portraits of GD Stug crews show collar stabs with Litzen on fieldgrey wraps and the Waffenfarbe on his Kragenspiegel looks too dark to be red, so it is probably black.

The combination is strange and rare.

Regards,
Thierry

[Maxoumilitaria]

Thanks for your answers guys!

A second picture of this Grenadier shows clearly that the Waffenfarbe on his straps is not white.

What other picture do you speak about? On this one, the piping of the boards looks very close to the colour of the shirt or am I missing something ?

[Daniel.S]

nice 2 piece insignia m43 hat..

[Maxoumilitaria]

Following a discussion with Thierry via email, I post these 2 pictures with his autorisation (Thanks again for the info! ).

They appear to show soldiers from the same unit as the uniforms are very similar and the 3 pictures were sold on ebay at the same time.

If we look carefully at these, the piping of the shoulder boards seem to be different:
- On the first one, it seems white (see the cockade) as it is on my picture
- On the second one, it seems darker (see the white shirt). In this case I would say pink or yellow

On both, the collar tabs seem to have a black piping. If so, that would indicate the Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon Großdeutschland.

As the 3 soldiers wear boards in the same dark material, they must have been the regular distributed insignia when the photo were taken (1943 earliest). As it would be surprising to have important stocks of dark green GD boards after 1943, I would say the boards are black.

If so, I'm not sure how GD Pioniere got FBB boards...

[CSP]

After the July 1944 attempt on Hitler's life at the Wolfschanze, a special Sturm-Pioniere Kompanie was formed within the FBB of men with more than average close combat skills (hand to hand, demolitions, etc.). It's purpose was additional security as a reaction force. It is reasonable to assume not all were trained engineers...just skilled/proven young soldiers. Some pictorial evidence indicates that some members wore the field grey Sonderbekleidung jacket and black Waffenfarbe.

[Maxoumilitaria]

Thank you very much for that info Scott! That would explain that strange combination.

Some pictorial evidence indicates that some members wore the field grey Sonderbekleidung jacket and black Waffenfarbe.

Do you have some of these pictures you could share ?

Cheers!

[CSP]

Maxoumilitaria:
I sent you a PM/email.

[OSS]

Am I understanding that these straps are not white embroidery and piping on dark green but possibly on the black underlay of the Fuehrer Begleit Bataillon?

[Maxoumilitaria]

That's the current state of the discussion yes.


That would explain why all these soldiers wear the same dark shoulder boards at such a late stage of the war (>= 1943). If it was only one of them, one could argue of tailor made or early dark green boards kept until then but as it's the 3 of them, it was probably the "normal" uniform for this unit. At the stage of the war, no Heer unit were receiving dark green boards anymore: only feldgrau or black. That would support the "black shoulder boards" case.

Same thing for the white piping on soldiers wearing a feldgrau panzerjacke --> that doesn't make a lot of sense unless the boards are black and it's in fact not the white from Infanterie but the FBB.

Even though that unit was only a Kompanie, everything would match (feldgrau panzerjacke, black Waffenfarbe on the collar boards, black shoulder boards with white piping).

[pauke]

collar tabs

I would suggest that the wrappers shown are very likely red-piped on the collar tabs. That is the most commonly found color followed by pink and a small number of golden yellow and lemon yellow. As was the case with grenadier regiments in the Pz-Lehr-Div. late war feldgrau wrappers were issued but the tabs were red-piped in most cases and we don't find quantities of grenadier-piped tabs as souvenirs. A Pz-Gren-Lehr-Regt. 902 friend of mine wore both skull tabs and Litzen tabs on wrappers which were red-piped of which I have both photos as well as the tabs(Litzen). His shoulder straps were grenadier green-piped which he had still. There are scant few feldgrau tabs in unusual colors like black and I think those were produced by a field unit and unlikely factory-made. Very late fg wrappers show evidence of red and pink Russia braid applied directly to the collar and it would be doubtful that they tried to complicate supply lines with a large variety of non-armor crew Waffenfarben. This problem was already dealt with in simplifying the soutache problem on M-40 tropical army caps. As long as the shoulder straps and boards showed the actual color of a soldier's branch that would suffice. It wouldn't be a surprise if by next Christmas someone has found a feldgrau wrapper with FBB straps and white-piped collar tabs. I hope the tabs are actually black with white piping! Santa has amazing powers.....

[luypaert t]

Fbb

The explanation of "pauke" makes sense, but their is photografical evidence that GD Grenadiere wore fieldgrey wraps with white piped collar tabs.
IMO Scott is correct and like Max states everything fits with the description in the books from Spaeter.
I believe these are rare portraits of men from a unique unit.

Regards,
Thierry

[brooksbz]

I believe these are rare portraits of men from a unique unit.

Interesting topic. Usually the simplest explanations are the most plausible.