DAK cuff title ( Officers)???

[Snoman]

Is there any credible evidence for the existence of an officer's variant with bullion ( the one with the palm trees)I.e., are there any real ones out there ?
Thanks in advance
Steve

[afrikasandman]

Steve,

There are a few threads on the subject. I saw one photo of two luft officers in trop uniforms with what was a bullion cuff title sewn on but I can't find it. There are several that I have seen that i felt were real. I own one of them. Matt

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Steve

No. Matt & i have looked for years for any solid evidence that these were worn during the war & found nothing except maybe the one pic that Matt mentions of the LW officer. I have seen one or two that might have a chance. Most advanced DAK collectors descibe them as a fantasy piece.....so the search continues

[JasonA]

They exist, but were not made officially so it would have been an officer or general who wanted to have one made for himself. I've seen one that I felt was genuine, there are of course more out there. But judging one will be based on your assessment of the quality, embroidery, etc.

J-

[Tim O'Keefe]

No vet bring backs, or any photographic evidence so far. A number of DAK veterans at a DAK re-union were asked about the bullion ct years ago said there was no such thing. A fantasy piece.

Since the Afrika ct was not worn in Afrika, the bullion version would have to have been made after June '43 in Europe not Afrika, after the surrender of Afrika. So they would very likely not have been worn on a tropical tunic but a European tunic instead if they even existed.

Most are fakes from the 70's, especially the ones with the black thread in the palms leaves....including the one in the Kurtz book.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Finally there is 100% proof

Hi Steve & everyone,

Well i have something finally positive to say on the bullion Afrika ct. This was sent to me by another Forum member, thanks Andy. After years of searching i am glad to say the bullion Afrika ct's do exist. At least the KM version no doubt about it. It pre-dates the Afrika standard version with palms by several months. Here is a photo dated on the reverse "Afrika Dec 1942" likely Tunisia at this point. Gold trim and letters on a black or very dark blue base. Notice no palm trees.

This is 100% proof that the bullion KM Afrika ct did in fact exist during the War, and that there are likely other variations that may be original. It is notable that it is similar to both the un-official blue/black LW & KM versions of the Afrika ct. I am still skeptical that the bullion version with the palms ever existed as that would have to have been made in Europe after Mid '43, but its possible. Will continue to research this point ?

The bullion version's with the black thread in the palm's leaves are fakes dating back to the 70's. No doubt the fakers/dealers will rejoice and push their fakes as originals now. But this original version really stands out when compared to the fakes....

[90th Light]

And you are happy Tim,

that it is not photo-shop affair or rein-actor with antique lens filter ?

Just asking because of this rare beast photo that turned up recently and was discussed here on WAF along with other such revelation photos now surfacing from similar sources,

Chris

[afrikasandman]

Well that Afrika cuff pic looks to be pretty credible in my opinion but nice to see Tim coming around. I won't agree that all Afrika cuffs with palm trees and black threads are repros.... I think many are but again its a matter of taste/opinion on those. I still really enjoy my bullion Afrika with palm trees but again its to each their own.

This photo at least confirms that they are a very real possibility, which there are a few of us out there that do believe in a handful of the them. Matt

[pauke]

Ct

How can one say the KM depicted is actually bullion? I have seen a couple of KM's over the decades and would say this one could be done in a heavy cord embroidery as opposed to actual bullion. I remember one done in cord but more in the typical lettering style of issue pieces and w/o palms.

[JasonA]

Tim – great photos in your post #6! Thanks for sharing those.

While they appear to be of a bullion cuff, to pauke’s point I don’t know if we can conclusively say it’s bullion. There are hand embroidered examples in cord or celleon which would appear similar given the quality of the photo we are dealing with.

Regardless, it’s still my opinion that even if none of us had seen a bullion DAK cuff to-date, they still exist. It stands to reason that any officer or general could have something created for themselves even though it was not an “officially” produced piece. We’ve seen it repeatedly with other things. I would add that any surviving piece that would be accepted as original by collectors today would have to have been made in Europe, I think. Lesser quality pieces or theater-produced examples would never be accepted here without ironclad provenance, even if legitimate

And I would argue that whether or not vets have seen one or not is meaningless. If it’s not an officially produced piece, and would have been something that only a handful of officers or generals might have wanted for themselves on a dress uniform, most during the period wouldn’t have seen one. And the likelihood of a vet bring back is slim. Doesn’t mean it’s a fantasy piece.

J-

[vizenz]

Hello,
I'm wondering about the Interpretation of this photo!
Yes, it is a nice and scarce photo, and I also did my bid on it. But it Shows a private purchased cufftitle of a Kriegsmarine soldier. Over the years I saw a lot of Hand embroidered KM cufftitles. Most are made with bullion on a simply petersham. They are probably foreign made (Italian). A few of this cufftitles also turning up in Luftwaffe estates. For sure, it is way easier to find a handembroidered KM cufftitle than one of the few machineembroidered.
This Picture Shows a better, thicker embroidered ct. But what has this to do with Afrika cufftitles with Palm trees? Or with handembroidered Army Afrikakorps cufftitles or something else?
It only Shows that there is a Chance that one of this thick embroidered KM cufftitles (mostly made with cellon threads) could be real, nothing else.

Best regards,
Andreas

[JasonA]

I had interpreted Tim's post and subsequent photo addition to mean that he doubted the existence of any bullion Afrika-related cuff title.

J-

[vizenz]

I had interpreted Tim's post and subsequent photo addition to mean that he doubted the existence of any bullion Afrika-related cuff title.

J-

But we know that the members of several Companies of Artillerie Regiment 33 wore handembroidered cufftitles! They all got this "Deutsches Afrika-Korps" bullion ct made with a typical SS style black band (gothic letters). We also know that several Kriegsmarine "Afrika" ct exist.
The only things that always in doubt are the existence of handembroidered examples of the Army "Afrikakorps" and the "Afrika" with Palm trees. And from the last exist one or two Portrait Pictures in wear. So the difficulty is to find an original band with provenance.

Best regards,
Andreas

[Tim O'Keefe]

I had interpreted Tim's post and subsequent photo addition to mean that he doubted the existence of any bullion Afrika-related cuff title.

J-

Hi Jason

Yes i have doubts about any bullion Afrika w/palms ct that is based on the standard '43 Afrika ct. After years of searching to find any evidence of them being used during the war. Matt, Antonio & i have concentrated our search on the Afrika w//palms not the LW or KM without the palms. Here are several pics of various forms of the black DAK & AKCT and starting first with nice KM version.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Next couple usuallly associated with the LW, but Pz had them too.