Knight's Cross with Oakleaves recipients Panzer tunic

[Ian Jewison]

Hans Engelien enlisted with Infantry Regiment 11 on 1.4.1933, he was promoted on 1.4.1935 to Leutnant, 1.6.1936 Oberleutnant and by the outbreak of war was Adjutant of I./Schützen-Regiment 3. After the Polish campaign on 18.4.1940 he became Chef of 6./Schützen-Regiment 3. This he led during the Western campaign and after the end of fighting transferred to Führer Reserve.
On 1.5.1941 he was promoted to Hauptmann and returned to 3 Panzer Division and was entrusted with the leadership of II./Schützen-Regiment 3 from 1.7.1941. In early September 1941, he was transferred for General Staff training after completion he was transferred to 12 Panzer Division. 20.4.1943 promoted to Major and became commander of Grenadier Regiment 118. In June 1944 he was adjutant on the staff of XLI. Panzer Korps and July 1944 took over command of Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 12. For his achievements in the fighting at the Niemen, he was awarded the Knight's Cross on 12.8.1944. In September 1944 he became commander of Panzer Grenadier Regiment 25, which he led in Kurland. On 1.1.1945 promoted to Oberstleutnant. Since 9.5.1945 he has been lised as missing at Libau.

22.9.1939 Iron Cross II
24.10.1939 Iron Cross I
Infantry Assault Badge (in Bronze?)
5.11.1941 German Cross in Gold as Hauptmann and Kompanie Chef 6./Schützen-Regiment 3
Russian Front Medal
1.7.1944 Honour Roll Clasp as Major with Grenadier-Regiment 118.
12.8.1944 Knights Cross as Major and Abteilung Kommandeur Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 12
16.3.1945 Oakleaves as Oberstleutnant and Kommandeur Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 25

Attached photo from the Vermisstenbildliste.

/Ian

[kenny andrew]

Excellent Ian , as always Rob I have no problem with the first name, if you held the tunic in your hand you would agree it was a one looker. As regards pictures of him wearing this tunic as far as I can find out the picture Ian posted and the first one I posted are the only one's in existence of him. You can also see in the photo he seems to be quite a small man , in fact the picture I posted of the rear of the tunic looks like the back of the tunic is very uneven , it's actually perfect at the back, but I had to cut down the polystyrene mannequin because the tunic was so small it would not fit , so that's why it looks uneven at the back and also confirms the tunic was for a man of rather small build.

[LRRPS]

I'm thinking about putting this Panzer tunic on the e-stand but have no idea what to ask for it, I've been unable to find any Knights Cross with Oakleaves recipients tunics for sale anywhere on the net. What would you think would be a good ball park figure to start with, have you seen anything else similar for sale? Any help on valuation would be greatly appreciated.

I have a Geschönte to oakleaves recipient Günter Klappich, III. / Gr.Rgt.60. Bought it some years ago on the e-stand for USD 5000. Hard to say how much the added awards and different branch of service would add to the price.

Two soldiers with the last name Engelien where awarded both the DKiG and KC, Fritz and Hans. Fritz Engelien served in 1. Inf.Div and 15. Inf.Div.

[codytrcollector]

the cloth version

Thank you very much, Rob. I did in fact see that he pointed that out in post five. What I'm uncertain of is would it have been for a detachable cloth version like seen on some HJ and SS cloth insignia or has it simply been removed and what we now see is remnants of how it was applied?
Thanks you all again.

[markus]

It's a beautifully tailored 'Holters' tunic.

I have the feeling though that the cloth GC might have been added (and removed) post war some point by a collector not being able to afford a proper metal cross. Just my impression though.

Cheers,
Markus

[kenny andrew]

Thanks Markus, it is a nice tunic , as regards the addition of a cloth DK post war I'm a 100% comfortable this is the way it has been since 1945 and has not been messed about with in any way at all. Thanks LRRPS for the additional information much appreciated Codytrcollector just saw your post there, this is just the way the DK would have been attached and you are correct that what we see now is just the remnants of how it was applied.

[Adam S.]

I would base your price off of what you paid as a starting point. Recover your investment, make a bit but pass it on to another collector at a reasonable price.

[Gary B]

To be honest I do not think the e-stand is the right venue to sell this piece, if you are interested in maximizing the price you get. While some rare/expensive pieces sell on the e-stand (more so in the past than now) I don't think the WAF would be reaching your widest collector audience. As I mentioned in another thread on the forum, some of these auction houses have a subscription list in the 10s of thousands. WAF can not compare/compete with that. While I am not advocating an auction house for its sale (nor am I criticizing the WAF), I am just stating you should consider how to best market this piece, which is unique, to reach the widest audience.

I would also recommend attempting to obtain his files from NARA. IMO these files add a lot to the overall history of the piece and, while simple to obtain, I am always surprised how many people do not attempt to get the NARA files (dealers included).

As for pricing, I think this is a clear example of a piece being worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are no comparables like an IAB, PAB, standard officer tunic etc. There was a named KIA DKiG Oberst Pz tunic on a dealers site for $3K or $4K (cant recall exact price) which stayed on the site for months before being sold in a private deal after the consigner pulled the item back. I thought the price of that tunic was a bargain given its history. So with that in mind what about an Pz officer Oaks recipient.....$7K?? $8K?? I could see those prices or perhaps higher given the right mix of interested parties.

Gary B

[kenny andrew]

Thanks Gary,

very wise words indeed , I did consider an auction which in theory should give you a great price , however the last item I put into auction went very badly with the auctioneers throwing the handle of a signed Japanese sword out with the packaging, I won't mention who the auctioneers were but after that and other similar experiences with auctions I have decided to avoid them. I think what I will end up doing as Blitzkrieg suggested is put it on my web page and on the e-stand at a high price, if some one wants to buy it great, if not I might get some decent offers.

[kenny andrew]

thanks for all your help guys I have just posted the tunic on the e-stand http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=832939

[JasonA]

Kenny,

All you need are two bidders who want an item equally, and you can see great returns on auctions. But when this doesn't happen, bidding can be lackluster at best. This is part of the incentive for buyers at auction...to get a good deal. Unless you put an item through Andreas Thies or Hermann Historical where the opening bid is often retail (or higher).

J-

[codytrcollector]

Thanks Markus, it is a nice tunic , as regards the addition of a cloth DK post war I'm a 100% comfortable this is the way it has been since 1945 and has not been messed about with in any way at all. Thanks LRRPS for the additional information much appreciated Codytrcollector just saw your post there, this is just the way the DK would have been attached and you are correct that what we see now is just the remnants of how it was applied.

Thank you, sir and a another thank you for posting such a beautiful example.

[Disco Partisan]

thanks for all your help guys I have just posted the tunic on the e-stand http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=832939

Good luck with your sell BTW I would definitely invest in professional photography and provide good quality pictures of the tunic when asking $10,600 for it.

[germanmedals]

Well when put on big well known auction site 40-50% never get in the pocket of the seller. So to expect 10.000$ bid on auction,...you would get about 5500$ at the end,...why dont sell it in the start for that. Except if you think that one would go up to 16000$ bid, which i doubt.

[kenny andrew]

Thanks Jason and Cody, I think I'll try it on the e-stand and if it does not sell I might consider putting it into auction. Thanks for optimising the photo Disco looks much better now. Erik I don't think I would get $16000 for it , I have it on the e-stand now for $10,600 and would be willing to consider offers