Your thoughts on this red-stitched Aufklarung Abteilung 3 Strap

[Schulterklappen]

Sources

good discussion. wish i had the tessin. if you guys could share your sources it would be appreciated.

This is from Lexicon der Wehrmacht:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm

[Schulterklappen]

AA 3 (mot)

The Wehrpass is for the same AA 3 unit that served in Africa.

It would be the same one correct?


Aufklärungs-Abteilung (mot.) 3

Feldpostnummern ab der Mobilmachung: Die Einheiten wurden als Teile der Aufklärungs-Abteilung 3 in der Feldpostübersicht eingetragen. 1940/41 wurde die 1. Schwadron in 1. Schwadron der Aufklärungs-Abteilung 160 der 60. Infanterie-Division umbenannt. 1940/41 erhielten die restlichen Einheiten den Zusatz der 3. Panzer-Division. 1941 wurden alle Einheiten zu Teilen der Aufklärungs-Abteilung 3 der 5. leichte Division umbenannt.
<table id="AutoNumber13" border="1" cellspacing="1" width="327"> <tbody><tr> <td align="center" width="181">Einheit</td> <td align="center" width="143">Feldpostnummer</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" width="181">Stab</td> <td align="center" width="143">06324</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" width="181">1. Schwadron</td> <td align="center" width="143">10752 bis 40/41</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" width="181">2. Schwadron</td> <td align="center" width="143">01645</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" width="181">3. Schwadron</td> <td align="center" width="143">27387</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" width="181">4. Schwadron</td> <td align="center" width="143">17192</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" width="181">Kolonne</td> <td align="center" width="143">11682</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Die Kraftfahr-Abteilung Wünsdorf wurde am 1. Oktober 1934 in Wünsdorf, im Wehrkreis III, aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus der 1. Kompanie der Kraftfahr-Abteilung 3 gebildet. Die Bezeichnung war zur Tarnung gedacht. Nach der Aufstellung wurde die Abteilung der 1. Kraftfahr-Kampf-Brigade unterstellt. Am 15. Oktober 1935 wurde die Abteilung in Aufklärungs-Abteilung (motorisiert) 3 umbenannt. Sie wurde jetzt auch nach Stahnsdorf, ebenfalls Wehrkreis III, verlegt. Die Unterstellung der Abteilung wechselte jetzt auch zur 3. Panzer-Division. Am 16. September 1940 wurde die 1. Schwadron an die Aufklärungs-Abteilung (motorisiert) 160 abgegeben. Im Januar 1941 wurde die Aufklärungs-Abteilung (motorisiert) 3 an die 5. leichte Panzer-Division abgegeben, umgegliedert und nach Afrika überführt.

[Johnny R]

Yes, Tessin was the source for Lexicon but some things were left out and small mistakes were made but nothing major. I wonder if the unit went from pink to golden yellow when it came under 5th light. As Kraftfahrtruppe even if it was a camouflaged unit, they would have worn pink.

[Schulterklappen]

Aa3 &amp; aa33

Elements of this get confusing. You have A.A. (mot) 3 and A.A. 33. 3, formerly of the 3. Panzer Division, goes to north Afrika with the newly formed 5. Leichte Division, later the 21. Panzer Division. 33 is part of the 15. Panzer Division and the A.A. 33 has it's roots in Reiter Rgt. 6 from Schwedt hence the Schwedt Adler tradition badge.

[Johnny R]

There are other units that were formed later as well.

[90th Light]

I wonder if the unit went from pink to golden yellow when it came under 5th light. As Kraftfahrtruppe even if it was a camouflaged unit, they would have worn pink.

This is what I am wondering also.

There are clearly EM/NCO continental shoulder boards for A.A.3 which are piped in pink along side Kav. golden yellow. The question is why ??? What elements of this unit wore pink and did that extend into service in Afrika or not ???

Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,
a fascinating insight by your friend into this question of colours utilised.
Many thanks for posting this and thanks to those who have also posted their pictures and views in this very interesting discussion.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

they are the insights/ findings/ research of our mutual friend and German tropical collector of many years experience Dal McGuirk.

He posted all this information along with much more in this thread on WAF for the benefit of all interested in this subject;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...McGuirk&page=2

Chris

[90th Light]

Elements of this get confusing. You have A.A. (mot) 3 and A.A. 33. 3, formerly of the 3. Panzer Division, goes to north Afrika with the newly formed 5. Leichte Division, later the 21. Panzer Division. 33 is part of the 15. Panzer Division and the A.A. 33 has it's roots in Reiter Rgt. 6 from Schwedt hence the Schwedt Adler tradition badge.

The Schwedt Adler tradition badge was also worn by certain units of A.A.3. Just the same as it was worn by only certain members of A.A.33 who had served in R.R.6./ K.R.6.
As I understand it more members in A.A.3 worn this tradition badge on their hats/ caps than A.A.33


Schwedter Adler (Dragoon Eagle) – Originally worn by the 1.
Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment Nr.2, authorized for use by:
Regiments-Stab, 2. and 4. Schwadronen of Reiter-Regiment 6
Kradschützen-Bataillon 3 (3. Panzer-Division)
All units of 3. Kavallerie-Division


The 3. Panzer-Division was formed on 15 October 1935 at Wünsdorf.
It lost several units to the forming 5. Leichte-Division January 1941 and in March received replacement units from other divisions.

Order of battle (1 August 1939)

3. Schützen Brigade
- Schützen Regiment
- Motorcycle Battalion

3. Reconnaissance Battalion
- Signals Platoon (mot)
- 2 x Armored Car Platoon
- Motorcycle Company
- Heavy Company (mot)
- Light Reconnaissance Supply Column (mot)

This is why this Soldbuch (pictured below on the viewers right, top image) picked up by New Zealand 4th Brigade soldier at Gambut Airfield on the morning of 23rd November 1941 is special. He might have had the right to wear the "Schwedt Adler tradition badge" on his tropical cap because he is a member of "Kradschützen-Kompanie 3, replacement unit" (3. Panzer-Division) transfered to 5. Leichte-Division January 1941 for service in Afrika.

It would be interesting to know exactly how many members of A.A.3 could wear this tradition badge due to service in or unit connection with R.R.6./ K.R.6,

Chris

[90th Light]

Close up of the "Schwedt Adler tradition badge" on the tropical caps,

Chris

[90th Light]

Useful diagram in trying to understand which units could wear the "Schwedt Adler tradition badge" 1939-45,

Chris

[Johnny R]

The motorcycle unit also was a Stahnsdorf but I do not think is listed for there in Tessin or Lexicon rather in Freienwalde, sometimes the Kasernes or cities will have a page on the WH times and this will have more information-

So here it talks about the choir members of Kradschützenkompanie der Aufklärungsabteilung 3. Stahnsdorf who were involved in making some recordings.

http://www.stahnsdorf-geschichte.de/...A4rgeschichte/

So that unit was there and as the wehrpass suggests, probably was used to form parts of AA 3. I know there were other units that changed from pink to golden yellow. It usually happened with changes to the parent formation. The early nebelwerfer units were "disguised" as nachschub/transport units and wore light blue until the offensive arm of the WH came out of the closet. My guess would the change in waffenfarbe color occurred when they were consolidated and assigned to the 5th Light Division.

[Beersheba4thLH]

...

[echoe]

aa3

to schulterklappen, 90th light and johnny r. appreciate your research and your sharing.

[Tim O'Keefe]

in 1939
3. Reconnaissance Battalion
- Signals Platoon (mot)
- 2 x Armored Car Platoon
- Motorcycle Company
- Heavy Company (mot)
- Light Reconnaissance Supply Column (mot)

Chris

Thanks for confirmation, originally when it landed in Afrika AA3 was comprised of three combat company's. With a bit of a followup.

1 Co Spah, platoon of 6 sdkfz 231, 3 platoon's with 6 sdkfz 222 each
2 Co Krad, 3 platoon's motorcycles
3 Co Schwere, platoon of 3 75mm IG, platoon of 3 37mm AT, & an engineer platoon (later the 75mm IG were ''upgraded'' to 25lb's & the 37mm AT were swapped for 50mm AT)

Also thanks for posting Dal's very detailed account of how both gold & copper were used by both Recon Bn's. Agree both colors were used by both Bn's and even green & rosa besides gold or copper especially in mid/late '42 when cloth suppies were very hard to get.

One thing he does not mention is the possibillity that the Spah Co wore pink ? & the Krad Co's wore green ? & in the Schwere Co, red for the Art platoon ?, pink for the Pz Jg platoon ?, & black for the pioneer platoon ?

All men in AA3 wore Cav gold including the cooks when they arrived in Afrika. Just like in 5th Pz Regt everyone would wear rosa including the mechanics and cooks etc. In Pioneer Bn 200 everyone wore black. In Afrika the only unit to have had the waffenfarbe designated by Co was the SV288 Regt, each Co did wear the waffenfarbe for their vocation in this specialized unit.

The reason its so hard to find tropical caps with gold soutache, is that there were only about 800 that made it to Afrika initially & almost all were lost there. AA3 did really not exist in Tunisia only a small KG remained of all three DAK Recon Bn's including the 580th from 90Lt Div. While in the 580th the motorcycle Co had traded them in for trucks, the Hv Co of the 580th had the Pioneer platoon & a platoon of 105mm for Art support & a platoon of Marder's for the AT element.

I still think the threadstarter preceeds Afrika ?

[Schulterklappen]

to schulterklappen, 90th light and johnny r. appreciate your research and your sharing.

I enjoy it. It is like a never ending puzzle!