During the course of the WH, including training/Ersatz formations there would have been 9 different units that could have worn "A 3" on boards. Only one of these was in Africa and served with the 5th LD and later the 21st PD.
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Hi ChrisOriginally posted by 90th Light View PostMillion dollar question,
"Exactly what branch of service colours were A.A.3 wearing in Afrika. There is no doubt that Kav. golden yellow was being worn. However, why are golden yellow tropical shoulder boards so hard to find and golden yellow soutache tropical caps nearly impossible to find ???
Did EM & NCO's of A.A.3 wear more pink of armored cars and green of motorcycles than Kav golden yellow in Afrika" ???
Also I have seen single cut off dark green continental straps that were found in German soldiers packs from Afrika. I can only speculate and not say for sure why the German soldier had such a strap but I have seen them from time to time in NZ veteran brought back lots.
Is the A.A.3 strap which started this such an example and is it worth US$700 ???
Who can say ?
"Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder"",
Chris
No, originally when it landed in Afrika AA3 was comprised of three company's.
1 Co Spah, platoon of 6 sdkfz 231, 3 platoon's with 6 sdkfz 222 each
2 Co Krad, 3 platoon's motorcycles
3 Co Schwere, platoon of 3 75mm IG, platoon of 3 37mm AT, & an engineer platoon
Besides pink & green, Spah & Krad Co's ?, in the Schwere Co, red for the Art platoon ?, pink for the Pzjg platoon ?, & black for the pioneer platoon ? Who would have worn Cav gold & later copper in the unit ?? All wore Cav gold including the cooks.
The reason its so hard to find tropical caps with gold soutache is the few thousand that made it to Afrika were lost there. AA3 did really not exist in Tunisia only a small KG remained....
Couple of your photos from the Any DAK items thread...
Johhny is spot on
The AA3 in Afrika wore gold as was their Cav tradition.
It is a wonderful strap and the price is up to the individual(s) that wish to own it
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Thank you for adding that image of my photo and veteran brought back AA3 badges Tim,
When I magnify the photo The only soutache which might be Kav. golden yellow is the sidecap. The other soutaches are a darker colour like jager green or black except the one on the unfaded cap, on the viewers left one (the towel around his shoulders) which looks to be pink.
My point is, That I have seen very few (i.e. five or less) Kav. yellow shoulder boards and only two caps with a Kav. yellow soutache in all my years of collecting in New Zealand and these were in other collections. I have never picked up a trop Kav. yellow shoulder board or cap myself. despite meeting, knowing, working with and being related to soldiers who fought in North Africa in 1941, 42 and 43.
I know AA3 were wearing Kav. golden yellow in November 1941 when the New Zealanders ambushed them early one morning. But you just do not see the Kav. golden yellow tropical boards and caps veteran brought back. They are a very rare find indeed to say the least,
ChrisComment
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In my post number 18, I have forgotten to mention recon "copper brown"
Thus what I have called Jager green or black is probably copper brown and that would explain the dark colour in the photo.
However, I come back to the question, exactly what branch of service colours did AA3 wear ?
1 Co Spah = pink, golden yellow, copper brown
2 Co Krad, = green, golden yellow, copper brown
3 Co Schwere, = golden yellow, copper brown ( is red or black unlikely ?)
Of course the whole thing is further complicated by logistical supply challenges, shortages and replacement troops in Afrika.
Thus who exactly would have worn the continental shoulder board that started this thread ?
ChrisComment
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The entire AA3 Bn wore gold-yellow/copper including the cooks. Just like all members of Pz Regt 5 wore rosa even if you were not a Pz crewman.
As the threadstarter is pink perhaps its from the Pz Jg platoon of AA3 ?Comment
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Waffenfarbe
You will find a lot of cross Waffenfarbe with Panzer related units. I have a pair of pink piped tailor made A3 Unteroffizier straps. Mike Pruett theorized that what was issued at home and what was worn at the front could be two different things. His example had to do with a grouping that belonged to member of Pz. A.A. 14. The boards are pink piped. He stated that unit wore gold piping and he was probably issued such at the front. The pink piped items were left behind and part of the soldier's estate; he was killed at the front in late 1944.
One would think that prewar Infanterie divisions A.A. units would be predominately gold piped. I have examples from A.A. 29 to include enlisted 1st model Feldbluse gold embroidery pieces and pink-piped tailor made enlisted A 29s.
It is much the same with Schuetzen straps. You would think that the Kav. Schuetzen straps would all be gold-piped; but, you will find S6 & S7 pieces in pink and gold.
The never ending mysteries of Waffenfarbe...Comment
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pink stitched Aufklärer Abteilung 3 Shoulder Strap
Hello,
The pink piped A.A. 3 strap came with a yellow piped 1. or 4. (kompanie) / A.A. 3 stamped visor hat and an A.A. 3 WP (with 9 photos and 2 doc.s). I do not know if these items came from the same German veteran or were part of someone else's collection. But these items may help answer Tim's question.
ChrisComment
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Pink stitched Aufklärer Abteilung 3 Shoulder Strap
pics of wp and stamp in yellow piped cap.Comment
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color
A friend of mine was in charge of the Kleiderkammer for AA 33 when they issued tropical uniforms and loaded the trains in Baumholder headed for Italy in April 1941. The enlisted and NCO ranks wore copper brown. Based on only one officer's insignia (the commander Major van Nes) the officers wore golden yellow they had been wearing. The only surviving officer's tunic from another officer I have seen is unfortunately missing the boards and collar tabs as he was there for the surrender in Africa. The photos I have seen of their time in Africa bear out the fact the troops had a medium colored soutache. In a few photos I have of another friend who was on Krads he wore his Feldbluse straps from his 1936 service stint with KR 6 in Schwedt. What later replacements wore I cannot substantiate but I would expect it to be brown. The AA 3 troops who went to Africa in 1941 came from Stahnsdorf near Berlin and always had the golden yellow tradition. They were the AA unit for the 3. Panzer Div. In Jan. 1941 they were outfitted in tropical uniforms and headed for Africa. The one EM I knew from that period could not remember what color Waffenfarbe his cap and straps had but assumed they were yellow. Another fellow who was sent to Pz.A Komp. 580 from AA 3 was Otto Henning whose book about his African experience has superb photos of the unit loading up in Cottbus in Dec. 1941. He didn't remember what color his straps and cap had on them either. When I questioned him about this a few times he couldn't recall brown being the likely color but it was not significant for him. There is also a nice studio portrait of him in parade uniform piped in golden yellow in the book. From another friend who was in a Pionier platoon in Pz. A. Komp. 580 I have several photos. The Waffenfarbe is uncertain, but definitely not black. Later in the war he was also in a Pionier platoon of the Pz. ALA in Normandy and wore golden yellow. I would imagine the AA 3 and Pz. A Komp. 580 troops wore brown in Africa as well but B/W photos cannot tell us with certainty. But, whether one was on a Krad or manning a PAK in the heavy weapons company, they would wear the same color in the unit. We can only blame the New Zealanders for doing an inadequate job of souvenir taking from the recon units in Africa (HUMOR)!Comment
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Originally posted by pauke View Post
Excellent primary research pauke and many a true word said in jest.
However in all fairness, here is one of the best studies on the subject that there is by a New Zealander whose understanding of this puts many to shame,
Chris
"Aufklärings-Abteilungen
There is also some confusion in collector circles regarding the use of gold yellow and copper brown (and pink) by the reconnaissance units (Aufklärungs-abteilungen) from 1940 to 1942/43. In the period we are discussing, 1940-1941, gold yellow was being replaced by copper brown. The simple facts are that there was no single changeover date for colours worn by troops in the field, or for that matter when the various firms manufacturing field caps and tunics with shoulder straps changed from one colour to another colour that was officially replacing it. These changes happened over a period of time, and often factories changed only when stocks of one colour may have been used up. The factories might not even have received their supplies of the new soutache or shoulder strap piping colours. Hence, the factories continued production using a colour that may have been on the verge of being officially superseded. A cap I saw for the first time last year, a 1942 dated field cap with copper brown soutache (maker Carl Halfar), is a prime example of this situation. Copper brown was meant to have been superseded by pink in 1942 for armoured reconnaissance units. Apparently nobody instructed the Halfar factory to stop making caps with copper brown soutache in 1942. There is no magic key we can use to apply here to understand in a black and white sense what was not a rigidly enforced system of colour allocation in the field.
As with the two shades of green Waffenfarbe, the older light green and the newer lime green, the two Aufklärungs-abteilungen serving in Africa in 1941 wore both gold yellow and copper brown, at the same time. My Gustav Thomas cap with its gold yellow soutache has a 1940 date. Thus it would have been made for issue to 3rdPanzer Division. Sadly I have no information on this cap’s origins. I do not know where and when it may have been picked up as a souvenir, and which unit may have worn it.
Many collectors take one list of Waffenfarben without understanding that it cannot be perfectly applied retrospectively or transposed to the future as a universal system for interpreting the use of arm of service piping used by the Wehrmacht. Too often we take a list of arm of service colours and try to make it apply to any number of periods, both before and after the time that list was composed and published. It will not fit such a neat paradigm.
Regarding copper brown I can definitely state it was in use with AA3 in 1941. (I have read some opinion that disputes this fact.) I have a cap with copper brown soutache (an undated or 1940 Schebeler) with the owner's name and his unit “3” on an embroidered name tape stitched to the lining. Being manufactured in 1940 would indicate this cap was also originally intended for use by 3rdPanzer Division, i.e. by AA3. The cap was picked up by a NZ officer at El Adem in early December 1941. I own five shoulder straps with copper brown piping (including two fitted to a tunic) that were picked up by NZ soldiers at Gambut Airfield on the morning of 23rd November after NZ 4th Brigade troops overran the lager AA3 had occupied overnight. Interestingly I also own a German overcoat picked up from inside a tent at Gambut on that morning which has had its sew in gold yellow officer piped shoulder boards cut off but leaving tufts of gold yellow woolen material behind on the seam. (I strongly suspect this desecration occurred postwar back in NZ with the culprits being the old soldier’s young children armed with a pair of scissors.)
It is my impression from reliable source- attributed souvenired insignia I have seen that in 1941 AA33 in 15.Pz-Div also used a combination of copper brown and gold yellow piped shoulder straps and field caps, as was the case with AA3.
For what it is worth I can say in all the years I have collected DAK material I have not seen or heard of an officer shoulder board in copper-brown that originated in North Africa. However I would say they existed, even though I have not seen one. It is likely that in 1941 all or nearly all officers serving both in AA3 and AA33 wore the gold piped yellow (or pink*) piped shoulder boards they would have transferred from their Continental uniforms.
* Pink-piped officer shoulder boards bearing a gilt metal Gothic “A” and the numeral “3” were souvenired by NZ soldiers when they captured Bardia in late January 1942."Comment
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Wish I had an embroidered example, but this is the best I can do.Originally posted by H.R. 17 View PostComment
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Chris,
a fascinating insight by your friend into this question of colours utilised.
Many thanks for posting this and thanks to those who have also posted their pictures and views in this very interesting discussion.
MarkComment
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A.a. 3
A pair for an Unterofffizer in rosa Waffenfarbe. It is possible that these belonged to
Aufklaerungs-Abteilung (mot.) 3 which traces it's lineage to Kraftfahr Abteilung Wuensdorf.Comment
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The Wehrpass is for the same AA 3 unit that served in Africa.Comment
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aa3
good discussion. wish i had the tessin. if you guys could share your sources it would be appreciated.Comment
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