Dal McGuirk’s observations about the use of green Waffenfarben by Heer troops

[galizien41]

Yes great thread. Here is a Nice board I just sold this week that is relevant to the thread.

[CSP]

Doing a little cheerleading for Dal (he deserves it) by way of posting below some information that may provide additional perspective to his superb accounting of reconnaissance (and motorized infantry) unit Waffenfarben in the North African Theater. It is also offered to contrast/compare what was occurring with reconnaissance units “in Europe/on the continent” mainly before and during the campaigns in North Africa…i.e., between February 1941-May 1943, but also after the May 1943 surrender of forces. It highlights the "armored" elements of the effected units because doing so lends better to a comprehensive listing of Waffenfarben. Other lighter skinned units within these battalions wore many of the same colors. So...room is left for additional discussion.


In the late 1930s armored cars were concentrated in Panzer, leichte, and most motorized (motorisierte) divisions within one or two of the five companies (Kompanien) in their respective reconnaissance (Aufklärungs) units. The leichte divisions converted to Panzer divisions in late 1939 following performances in the Polish Campaign that fell short of what had been envisioned. Significant changes to organizational structures necessarily began.

The structure of the motorized divisions also changed several times from 1940 through 1944 as the Wehrmacht sought to convert some to armored infantry (Panzergrenadier) divisions and others to Panzer divisions. The conversion of the motorized divisions to Panzer divisions began in 1940 for those units which converted to Panzer divisions. For those designated for conversion to Panzergrenadier divisions the process was carried out much later, beginning in 1943. These conversions tended as well to affect the structure of the reconnaissance units.

Those subordinate elements of reconnaissance units equipped with Panzerspähwagen were concentrated initially in one battalion within the Aufklärungs-Regimemter (mot) of leichte Divisionen and the Aufklärungs-Abteilungen (mot) of both motorisierte and Panzer-Divisionen. The motorcycle battalions (Kradschützen-Bataillone) initially comprised another separate and specialized type of reconnaissance force within most motorisierte and Panzer-Divisionen.

Kradschützen-Bataillonen were not equipped with Panzerspähwagen until a general reorganization of reconnaissance forces began to occur in January 1942, resulting in a consolidation of Aufklärungs and Kradschützen capabilities into a single unit within Panzer divisions. The consolidated units were referred to as Kradschützen-Bataillonen - a naming convention which lasted until April 1943 when the reconnaissance units of Panzer-Divisionen were again renamed as Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilungen.

Here is what was going on with arm of service color changes – at least what the regulations documented as the intent - since, as Dal and others have pointed out, changes were seldom immediate (much less universally followed), especially with forces at the front.


pink/rosa
<OKradschützen<O
1938-1943<O
AHM38, Nr. 495, 31 Juli 1938<O
Pink was authorized by the order for Kradschützen of Panzer-Divisionen; at the point in time when Kradschützen-Bataillonen began to be equipped with Panzerspähwagen a mixture of Waffenfarben persisted due to frequent changes in assigned colors and units abiding with traditions; although by 1942 pink was not the prescribed color, some units continued to wear it - especially within the original first five Panzer-Divisionen
<O
<O
pink/rosa
Aufklärungs (mot)
1935-1945
Order number not found
Wear of the color was based on the categorization of these units as Kraftfahrkampftruppen; the Panzerspäh elements of the Aufklärungs-Abteilungen (mot) of the first five Panzer divisions and Panzerspäh elements of motorized (motorisierte) divisions 2, 13, 20 and 29 were therefor were assigned pink and tended to retain the color until 1945, despite other Waffenfarben changes


pink/rosa
Panzer-Aufklärungs
1943-1944
AHM 43, Nr. 309, 25 März 1943
Aufklärungs-Abteilungen (mot) of the Panzer-Divisionen were renamed Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilungen in conjunction with this order; the Waffenfarbe was unchanged

<O</O
gold-yellow/gold-gelb
Aufklärungs (mot)
1938-1939
AHM 38, Nr. 495, 31 Juli 1938
The Panzerspäh elements of the Aufklärungs-Regimenter (mot) of the first four leichte divisions and Aufklärungs-Abteilungen of Panzer-Divisionen were assigned gold-yellow

<O</O
gold-yellow/gold-gelb
Panzer-Aufklärungs
1943-1945
Order not found
Many Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilungen – such as those in the first five Panzer-Divisionen - continued to wear gold-yellow stemming from AHM 38, Nr. 495, 31 Juli 1938 despite AHM 43, Nr. 309, 25 März 1943 directing pink

<O</O
copper-brown/kupferbraun
Aufklärungs (mot)
1939-1943
HVB 39A, Nr. 68, 6 Juli 1939
All Aufklärungs (mot) were ordered to change to copper-brown; this would have applied to the Panzerspäh equipped units in all divisions; it is unlikely the conversion was fully implemented

<O</O
copper-brown/kupferbraun
Kradschützen
1941-1943
AHM 41, Nr. 1069, 28 Oktober 1941
Unusually, this order gave an “Effective as of date”: 15 September 1943; it directed all members of Kradschützen-Bataillone to wear copper-brown; the merger of Aufklärungs-Abteilungen with Kradschützen-Bataillone in Panzer-Divisionen began in 1942

<O</O
copper brown/kupferbraun
Panzer-Auflkärungs
1943
HV39A, Nr. 68, 6 Juli 1939/AHM 41, Nr. 1069, 28 Oktober 1941
The first order directed the color for Aufklärungs-Abteilungen (mot); It had already been officially directed as the prescribed Waffenfarbe for Kradschützen-Bataillonen


Hope this is useful.

[Tim O'Keefe]

First Thankyou very much Dal for taking the time to write this up. & to Mike for posting it. I agree the different shades of the greens were encountered before Afrika. Some European sidecaps had reseda piping before 1941. And there were tropical sidecaps found in the "beehives" dated as early as Feb '41.

This is nice list of Waffenfarbe, though most of you have seen it before it is not 100% perfect but close. Thought some might like to see it.
Here is list of units in Afrika and the Balkans: copied from C Evans list, Thanks. 1941-42.

Combat Troops Staff: Waffenfarbe

Generals---Color was Red.
--------------------------------------------------
Color is: White.
Army Group Staffs. A.G's. G,E,F, Staffs.
Army Staffs. Army Group "A" 2,12 Staffs.
Armored Group Staffs. "Afrika."
Korps Stabs. 11th, 30th, 51st, 52nd, 65th, 68th, 69th, 91st.
Reserve Stabs. 59th.
Motorized Korps Stabs. 41st.
--------------------------------------------------
Color is Pink.

Armored Army Staffs.
Armored Korps Staffs. 14,40,46.
--------------------------------------------------
Color is: Light Green/Grass Green.
Gebirgejager Korps Staffs. 15th, 18th, 21st, 22nd, 46th.
__________________________________________________

Combat Troops--Infantry:
Color is: White.

Infantry Division Staffs.
1st Airlanding (Luftlande) Div Staff.
Assault (Sturm) Division Staffs. Rhodes.
Infantry Regiments. 16 thru 750.
Grenadier Regiments. 754,755.
Reenforcement Bataillons.220, 598,599.
Afrika Division Staff. 90,999.
Motorized Infantry Div Staffs. 16, 60.
Motorized Infantry Regiments Staffs. 60, 92.
Motorized Grenadier Regiment Staffs. 120, 156.
Motorized Regiment Grossdeutschland.
Special Purpose Div (Div zbV) Staffs.
Special Purpose Rgmt (zbV) Staffs.
Fortress Division Staffs. 41, 133, Kreta.
Fortress Btns. 621,622,623.
Fortress Infantry Btns. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,16,18,19,20,21,22,99 9.1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,16,18,19,20,21,22, 999.
Reserve Division Staffs. 173,187.
Reserve Infantry/Grenadier Rgmts. 17, 45, 130, 231, 462.
Flak Btns.

__________________________________________________
Color is: Light Green/Grass Green.

Machinegun Battaillons. 2,8.
Gebirgsjager Div Staffs. 1,4,5,6.
Gerbirgs Regiments. 13,85,91,98,99,100,141,143.
Mountain Reinforcement (Feldersatz) Btns. 91,94,95.
Jager Div Staffs. 42,100,104,114,117,118.
Jager Rgmts.25 thru 750.
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------Various colors.
1 (Sonderverband) 288.
Brandenburg Btns. 1,2,4.
__________________________________________________
Combat Troops-Mobile: (Schnell Truppen)
Color is: Gold-Yellow:
Mobile Div Staffs.
Motorcycle Recon Btns. 59.
Division Recon (Divisionsaufklarung) Btns. 42 thru 392.
Motorized Recon Btns. 3,5,8,9,33,40,231.
Mountain Recon (Gebirgsaufklarung) Btn. 33.
Div Fusilier Btns. 181,297.
__________________________________________________
Color is: Pink.

Panzer Div Staffs. 1,2,5,8,9,10,11,14,15.
Panzer Regiments. 1,3,5,7,8,10,15,31,33,36.
Motorcycle Recon Btn. 61.
Armed Recon Btns. 1,3,10,59,90,164,220,999.
Panzerjager Btns. 33,39,90,190,334,605,999,52 thru 392.
Motorized Panzerjager Btns. 4,37,38,43,50,53,90,160,228.
Mountain Anti-tank (Gebirgspanzerjager) Btns. 47,94,95.
__________________________________________________
Color is: Grass Green.

Motorcycle Recon Btns. 2,8,15,55,59,64.
Motor Rifle Rgmts. 2,8,10,11,13,14,28,103,104,106,110,111,155,304.
Mechanized Panzergrenadier Rgmts. 1,69,86,104,113,115,125,155,200,361,382,433.
__________________________________________________
Color is: Light Green.

Light Infantry Div Staffs. 90,101.
""""""in Africk Staffs. 90,164.
Light Inf Rgmts. 200,361.
__________________________________________________
Combat Troops--Artillerie:

Color is: Red.

Artillerie Rgmts. 33,75,155,220,334,999,83 thru 670.
Arty Btns. 361,653,654,661,668,670.
Reserve Arty Btns. 10,96.
Motorized Arty Rgmts. 4,33,74,80,102,116,119,148,160,190.
Gebirgsarty Rgmts. 79,94,95,118.
Panzerarty Rgmts. 33,73,90,155.
Assault Gun (Sturmgeschutz) Btns. 184,190,191.
Army Anti-Aircraft Btns. 299,302.
--------------------------------------------------
Neberwerfer Btn 9. ---Bordeaux Red.
__________________________________________________
Combat Troops--Pioneers:

Color is: Black.

Pioneer Btns. 5,71 thru 704, 220,334,900,999.
Reserve Pi Btns. 46,86.
Pi Kompanies. 704,713,714,717,718, (Rhodes).
Gebirgspioneer Btns. 54,91,94,95.
Panzerpioneer (Armored Engineer) Btns. 13,33,37,38,49,59,86,89,200,209,220.
--------------------------------------------------
Bau Pi Btn. 85 Color is Light Brown.

Combat Troops--Signals:
Color is: Lemon-Yellow.

Signals Btns. 5,334,999,71 thru 392.
Signals Kps. 704,713,714,717,718 (Rhodes).
Reserve Signals Kp. 1087.
Gebirgenachrichten Btns. 54,91,94,95.
Armored Signals (PanzerNachtrichten) Btns. 4,37,38,77,78,84,85,90,190,200,220,341.

Color is: Yellow-Grey.
Propaganda Kps. Afrika,690,698,
Propagands Btn. Sudost.
Supply Troops:

Color is: Cornflower Blue.

Div Supply. 5,46 thru 887, 190,220,334,999.
Gebirgs Div Supply. 54,91,94,95.
Mot Div Supply. 4,61,66,82,85,160.
Armored Div Supply. 59,60,81.
Supply Btn, 533.
Mot Transport (Kraftwagon) Kps. 33 thru 999 and 4 thru 887.

Again thanks C Evans for this very well done work.

& most of all to DAL who inspire's us all to keep collecting and preserving the past

Heia Safari Dal !

[echoe]

more green

"How can one shade evoke sickness, hope, hazard, the supernatural? Colors are uncertain things, green not least among them..."

[Tim O'Keefe]

Was talkin to Dal the other day, and was surprised to learn he was under the impression that a few DAK collectors (including myself & some much more knowledgeable that i) thought that the two MG Bn's that served in the original DAK wore only white piping from Europe instead of the green waffenfarbe.

I completely agree with Dal that the 2nd & 8th MG Bn's, DAK wore green waffenfarbe in Afrika with the exception of some of the officers that still wore their white piped shoulderboards from their European tunics. The only units to wear white piping in early Afrika were the Flak Bn's. The question still remains though, did any of the Officers wear green piped shoulderboards in early Afrika ? These days there are plenty of boards from this unit piped in green.....

Thanks again Dal

Heia Safari !

[Dmv]

Excellent info! Thanks!

[afrikasandman]

Tim,

I would say yes they did. I have a set of LT boards to the 200th that had the cyphers added before the board was completed... Matt

[NickG]

What a great informative thread


Color is: Grass Green.
Motorcycle Recon Btns. 2,8,15,55,59,64.
Motor Rifle Rgmts. 2,8,10,11,13,14,28,103,104,106,110,111,155,304.
Mechanized Panzergrenadier Rgmts. 1,69,86,104,113,115,125,155,200,361,382,433.

My DAK contribution:

[don_kihotis7]

Great and informative thread Mike. Thanks for posting

Nick nice set

[Schulterklappen]

MG Btl. 2

The picture and the strap were separate acquisitions; but, in a sense they go together. Notice the Feldwebel has an Italian-German Africa Campaign Medal ribbon and a bronze PAB. I thought the picture and strap fit in with Mr. McGuirk's observations.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Really nice Schulterklappen & agree this thread should be pinned

Have been reminded that the 8MG Bn did infact wear both white and green waffenfarbe in Afrika. Most of the Officers wore white piped boards from their European tunics & still looking for confirmation of any Officers that wore green piped boards initially ? Some EM also wore white piping on their straps, though most wore green. There are a couple photos of the 8MG Bn and you can cleary see white piping on at least two NCO's while the rest appear to be wearing green. Here are a couple more sets of straps. One recent and one ancient. The ancient first.

[Tim O'Keefe]

the recent

[pauke]

color

Again, per their privately published unit history "Pz.A.A. 33 in Nordafrika" by Gerhard Fiebig and Johannes Keller, the unit left Baumholder on 9 April 1941 wearing brown-piped straps and caps. G. Fiebig had told me this a couple of times without my even asking.