Originally posted by Waffenreich
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Sorry, I did skip over the text as has already been pointed out. Scott has an example and photo of a type he terms 5th pattern. I had one in my collection at one time. Your example is a similar font and I like the construction and materials, but without evidence it may continue to be viewed with suspicion. -
Pauke and OSS,
Good points you brought up.
Here is a comparison to one for sale on Oakleaf and the back of the same type for sale by Weitze. The formation of the letters are slightly different without a doubt. One thing to note is that the way the cufftitle is constructed is also different. The Oakleaf and Weitze titles have an integrally woven top and bottom wire band hence the continuous strands of metal thread on the back. On the title in question these bands are not required so could this require a different template for the loom, one that may deviate slightly from the consistency/uniformity of the standard 1st pattern?
I can see how a comparison can immediately cast doubt due to the lack of consistency between it and the standard 1st pattern issue examples, but it must be kept in mind that this is not a standard issue example. A good parallel is the differences in letter formation between identical patterns of the Hermann Goring title.
The disclaimer again - I'm not trying to grasp at straws and I can COMPLETELY understand why some have doubts about this one and why. I guess at the end of the day since the trade is pretty favorable I'll get it and see where it takes me. Generally I stay away from non-standard stuff, but with it being part of a small group of Wachregiment stuff I think if anybody would have the opportunity to acquire something slightly "personalized or embellished" it would be an NCO in that unit vs. a GD frontline unit.
One last point for consideration - if this is a repro/fantasy piece wouldn't it stand to reason that whoever made this/these would also knock out a few "officer versions" of the Heer Feldgendarmerie cufftitle since the construction technique is identical (just needs a strip of copper brown doeskin as the base material). If somebody has seen one of these or can post a pic of it as a known repro then I'd say case closed.
I appreciate the interest in this discussion and hope we can see a few more opinions.
vr
BobLast edited by Waffenreich; 08-13-2014, 09:21 PM.Comment
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OSS,
Thanks for posting that pic. Your post was being loaded as I was posting my previous reply.
Regarding the 5th pattern title - it is interesting that Scott has labeled it as that as to me it is a hybrid of the 1st pattern using the Gothic script. I would say a 5th pattern would be something akin to a new font style such as Times New Roman, or Arial etc..... This picture of the Pz soldat lends credence to the fact that personalized "non-standard" examples were procured by those who had the means to do it.
This picture is certainly reinforcing my initial feelings about this title.
vr
Bob
Originally posted by OSS View PostComment
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Hi,
IMHO nothing to do with the so called 5<SUP>th</SUP> pattern, the script is totally different.
(Scott call it 5<SUP>th</SUP> pattern but it could be a transition CT between 1<SUP>st</SUP> and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> pattern, as a matter of fact a lot of the pics depicting this CT are printed in France in 1940).
About the Bob's CT, ...this is for sure an attempt “to copy” (not in the sense of fake or reproduction) the 1<SUP>st</SUP> pattern script but there are a lot of little but significant differences in the letters, and as far as we know in the first pattern of the GD CT there are no variants (just one producer) and all the known original example have exactly the same letters.
Anyway, it's still a mistery and I think that only if it comes to light a photo where it is clearly depicted we'll be able to have an answer.......
All my best
Giorgio
BTW : very nice thread...:-)))))Comment
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Just few points in example.....Comment
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Two other examples
Bob,
Over the years I have seen two other examples of this variant of the GD cufftitle and I discussed these with Scott Pritchett.
I share Scotts opnion that we need photographic evidence to prove their originality.
But both owners are convinced that their cufftitles are original.
Regards,
ThierryComment
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I 've already seen this construction with a "bevo like" construction ...
It was made in the 70's and 80's in Germany , among a large choice of other different badges like eagles .
The guy used many original rests of cloth including Dyftin or original feldgrau wool cloth when possible (coats ...) .
He had the machines to produce embroidered badges but not bevo so he simply "copied" the bevo badges with an embroidery machine ...
I think it's one of them , may be bought by the vet' in the 70's ?
NickComment
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One could expect to see more of these if they were fake.Originally posted by GAMS1 View PostComment
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I don't know if he sold 1000's of them as it was not a correct version !
He also had the correct embroidered version which was a lot more popular !
He was not such a big dealer as well and made lists at that time with his name
" Richard Herre " in Balingen...
NickComment
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So I finally have a chance to revisit this Thread and want to first say thanks to all who have commented. Even though it may not end up providing anything to boost my confidence it has been a very pleasant Thread to be a part of so again, hats off to you guys.
OK, so there are some differing opinions as to whether-or-not these are wartime.
* On one hand there are a few of us who say the method of embroidery and materials themselves are wartime, and wear looks convincing, but yes, the lettering deviates slightly from the contract produced 1st pattern, but not enough to kill it so it stands a chance. And then there are the others that say all things considered the lettering and lack of production proof kills it.
** The argument can be made that since this is not a contract produced 1st pattern slight variances can be expected, and possibly accepted. This includes use of silver Russia Braid, slight deviations in the conformity of the letters in comparison to the contract example, and base cloth itself.
** The argument cannot be made that there are no pictures of it being worn. It's more a case of an inability on the part of the community to produce and post a wartime pic of one being worn. This is a big difference as there could be 20 pictures of it being worn in private albums throughout homes in Germany (that's a stretch of course - I'm just trying to make a point between what is deemed to not exist and what has not been encountered YET).
** Scott's hybrid 1a/5th pattern is a great example of what would have been considered fantasy for years suddenly becomming accepted by the mere production of one legit wartime picture. It should not be considered unreasonable that if a cottage maker produced one, he/she probably produced say 20(+/-). With the relatively low number of officers and senior NCOs in GD around the time of the wear of the 1st pattern a mass order for a "non-standard" title would defy good economics. I believe this contributes to the low number encountered of Scott's 5th patterns, and these.
** If the 5th pattern (what I would call for this point the 1a hybrid) is indicative of an attempt to produce a GD title that was a little fancier than the somewhat unpopular 1st pattern green-backed example, why would it be unrealistic to expect to potentially encounter another "experimental" title incorporating features of the title that was in-wear at the time (1st pattern) with some changes in design that were more reflective of the direction the title was heading (black base cloth, separately applied Russia Braid, etc..)?
** As for the deviation in the letters - I personally feel this should not be looked at as the kiss of death right away. I'm not a weaving loom expert, but consider this: if the template/pattern for the 1st pattern is designed to incorporate the top and bottom bands as an integral part of the embroidery process would a design change ommitting them cause a redesign of the template? One in which the formation of the characters is just slightly different, but not enough to cause the average individual to say there has been a radical design change in the font that may not have yet been directed by the OKH BKA. We as collectors look at everything through a forensic lens, and rightly so. I'll bet if you laid the title in question on a table next to a contract produced 1st pattern and asked a German soldier or civilian in 1940 to point out the differences they would probably say "um the color looks different, this one has big strands of silver wire on the edges, and oh - this one is nice and soft". My point is the lettering followed closely the design of the model this is meant to represent and wouldn't have caused the hairs to stand-up on anyone viewing it in-wear, or put before them for scrutiny to pass as a prototype. Just think how many embroidered GD straps have been cast to the abyss of fakedom because the stroke of the "G" didn't bulge, or the twist at the bottom was "not quite right".
GAMS1 - regarding your point about the guy in the 70s and 80s popping these, and other flavors out: I can understand completely the likelihood of this taking place using original materials, looms, etc.. I am not letting my desire for this to be original prejudice my feelings, but I am with OSS in saying if that is the case then why are we not seeing these in much larger quantities? As of the typing of this I can say there are now 3 known examples of this pattern (I will post the pics of the two in a minute). This to me does not constitute a sample large enough to use as the basis to support the point that they were made at that time (70s/80s). I know that is not what you were implying, just trying to reinforce the point that these have not appeared in the numbers that I would expect to encounter if produced with a profit motive behind it. Also, the Fg title is constructed the same in every respect except the color of the band. Why not pop out a few "officer's versions" of them as well, and if he did - where are they? If this Richard Herre guy did make these, why would he make such a radical departure from the normal design as to immediately cause concern over the design differences??
So these are just some points to ponder in trying to form an opinion. At the end of the day without ROCK SOLID proof that they are fake they have to be considered as candidates in the "Original Party". As I have said many times, I am not trying to make myself believe these are real, just trying to maintain objectivity until the "coup de grace" is applied that seals the case one way or the other. The terms of the trade are favorable enough to where I am into the title for next to nothing so I'd be foolish to not take the opportunity to get it. As for selling it one day I guess I'll offer it to PvL or Klaus as they thought it was good.
One interesting point - this grouping (with a GD EM strap which I have recently bought) was on ebay in Germany about 4 months ago. Ebay cancelled the auction with 2 days left and the bid at the time was around 1300Euro. I know that is not always an accurate indicator of true value or originality, but makes you think who else is out there watching/collecting that does or does not participate on this Forum (or does silently)?
Lastly, I would like to thank Thierry for forwarding me a pic of his title, and one he knows of on a uniform. Both items were said to be originally sourced from vets (not by him directly, but 2nd, 3d party, etc.). I wonder if these vets were in the Wachregiment??
If we haven't pretty much killed this Thread I would love to hear some more thoughts.
vr
Bob
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Thanks once again to Thierry - here is another picture showing a title in wear.
I am not saying this is the same type as the title in question, but I do not believe this is the standard 1st pattern either as the band appears to be much darker than the tunic wool and I do not see any band base material above the upper band or below the lower band as is evident on a standard 1st pattern.
What do you guys think - standard 1st pattern, or other?
vr
BobComment
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. Why not pop out a few "officer's versions" of them as well, and if he did - where are they? If this Richard Herre guy did make these, why would he make such a radical departure from the normal design as to immediately cause concern over the design differences??
Documentation was not that correct at that type and he had may be only low quality pictures of the band or the quality was enough good for that period ?
He made a lot of different breast eagles , normally easy to reproduce but the result was not that accurate ...
He produced everything in "bevo like" cotton embroidery for EM version of everything and in silver threads for OFF , not hand embroidered as he has the machine to do that,not the right personal !
The veterans were buying his production as well , through other retailers but how many ? A 40 years old production ...
He made for example the WSS skulls cotton bevo like embroidered you can see sometimes in Germany ,made in silver threads also !
I don't think this type of bevo like embroidery even existed pre 45 ?
Nick
Nick
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