trop pz colar tabs

[longislandercjv]

Tropical skull tabs

My old friend schulterklappen has asked me to comment on this topic.

Everyone knows the similarities/differences between "Afrikakorps" and
topical items. Also, everyone will agree that period photos are the "acid Test" in confirming the existence and wartime wear of "non-standard"
pieces. For example, the Suters' incredible find of a "Granatwerfer"
chainstitched strap in feldbluse configuration, originally thought as a
"fantasy item" until Carsten Fries presented a photo clearly showing the
exact strap in wear! (I have since obtained a nice pair)
That being said, I have had or have seen two examples of cotton twill tabs(color range dark tan to standard OD) pink and golden yellow piped.
Alas, I currently do not own one now. The tabs shown with lemon yellow
piping are quite unique, and indicate that perhaps there are others yet to be found piped in red, black, both greens and perhaps even white and bordeau red.

Use in Africa is very doubtful (except individual field made), but use in
Italy, Southern Russia, Greece, Crete and other similar tropical (i.e., hot!)
areas is realistic.

In short, I believe them! "Textbook" collectors will not.
I have been asked to give my opinion, and that's what my commentary is,
my opinion.
Chris Varrichio

[OSS]

This is certainly a great newsreel for anyone interested in this theatre of the war. Sewing Panzer type tabs over the litzen of tropical tunics was not that unusual, not only in the Heer but even amoung HG armored personnel. I think it is even possible that Pz. Nachrichten troops could have worn them. As for the ones in question, I am not crazy about the ribbed tropical fabric used nor the yellowish thread used to construct them, however since these applications occurred on a unit or even individual basis, who can say. I guess you must take the source into consideration as well.

Here is an HG Panzermann with applied tabs:

[derka]

And an officer in Italy 1944, black backing colar tabs on tropical tunic :



This practice is wellknown.

But the film showing an Aufkl. unit (probably 10 Pz.Div) was taken in Tunisia, before german surrending in Africa in may 1943.
I don't know if "tropical" colar tabs visible in this film were field made, specificaly for this recon unit, neither if other with different piping color were made.
My initial question was only did they ever exist and were worn on tropical tunics, and the answer seems to be yes based on this film.
derka

[OSS]

And an officer in Italy 1944, black backing colar tabs on tropical tunic :



This practice is wellknown.

But the film showing an Aufkl. unit (probably 10 Pz.Div) was taken in Tunisia, before german surrending in Africa in may 1943.
I don't know if "tropical" colar tabs visible in this film were field made, specificaly for this recon unit, neither if other with different piping color were made.
My initial question was only did they ever exist and were worn on tropical tunics, and the answer seems to be yes based on this film.
derka

I think Panzer Nachrichten tabs unlikely and the other possibilities mentioned (Lime green and Bordeaux ie.) even more so. There was an Eastern European fellow who used to attend all the shows who had mounts full of every Panzer tab imaginable, all apparantly removed from uniforms. I haven't seen him lately, perhaps he has retired to a seaside villa funded by collectors with imagination.

[derka]

As a sidenote about the nachrichten pair shown in #1, holes visible throught rounded piping section in the reverse wiew look to corespond to the perimeter of a sewing line of appliation of the tab.
But there are no holes visible on the part of the piping tucked behind the tab, along red arrows :



Could this imply that this piping was new when used, and not removed from shoulder straps to make those colar tabs ?
If so, the "field made" hypothesis for those is very thin IMO.
And then, the lack of clear signs of wear is odd, if they were period applied on something.

[Ralph Heinz]

Black Pz collar tabs

In the late 1990s while they were still alive, I corresponded with two former officers of the 7th Regt. 10th Pz. Div., Gunter Gassler and Heinz Hoffer who wrote me that they wore the black collar tabs removed from their black tunics and sewn to their tropical tunics unless newer members of the regt. came to it not having worn the black wool tunics in Russia or S. France before arriving in N. Africa. In that case, they simply pinned skulls to their tropical tunics without the black wool tabs. Rather poor quality photos from Heinz Hoffer showed the wearing of the black tabs on their tropical tunics in N. Africa and at Camp Concordia, Kansas as POWs where three officers wore the black Pz. collar tabs on white summer dress tunics!

As to the photos showing what appear to be tropical or gray wool tabs -- before we jump to conclusions, cut some pieces of black wool and set them in direct mid summer sun all day for three months and wash them from time to time with the harsh bar soap of that time period which contained a lot of lye. Then see to it that they are covered with dust repeatedly. Isn't it possible that faded dusty black wool is going to be many shades lighter?

[90th Light]

I think Panzer Nachrichten tabs unlikely .

I suppose if one keeps in mind that everything in this game has been faked and "if it is too good to be true then it probably is"

However, there are cases of Panzer Nachrichten tabs being worn in Aufkl. units. When the New Zealanders captured a high number of prisoners from Pz.A.A.26 in Italy in 1944, it was noted that the Funkers and related Nachrichten personal were wearing lemon yellow piping.

This is because NZ intelligence officers ordered "Funkers ( Nachrichten )" were top of the list for interrogation. They were number 1 on the prisoner list. The order was put out that any German wearing the lemon yellow or a signal blitz was to be brought into HQ without delay.

I have a NZ officers papers/ orders from 1944 to prove this.

Pz. Nachrichten wore lemon yellow piping/ tabs in Italy. The question is, did they wear a tropical version of the tab ???

Chris

[derka]

... Isn't it possible that faded dusty black wool is going to be many shades lighter?

Yes, i thought to this hypothesis too, as it is realy difficult to judge for sure.
Dust can change black color on b&w pics :



And of course worn or newly delivered tropical tunics could show diferent shades in Africa:



I think the officer in the film has a tunic just issued, hence it should have realy "clean" black colar tabs.
And the dark green color of the CT of the NCO behind him (with "empty" colar tab) is not dusty or with a lighter shade up to a point it would be close to its colar tab and tunic color:



For easier comparizon, i zoomed on colar tabs shown in the film, the officer is the last:

[NZMark]

Great work - and wonderful stills.
Mark
NZ

[OSS]

I suspect these are feldgrau wool tabs with either golden yellow or pink piping (not sure which 10th Pz. Aufkl. used). They don't appear black to me and I have never seen olive twill ones. Of course I haven't seen everything.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks for posting the stills Derka, great stuff

The color stills from this film clearly show black tabs with gold/yellow piping on 1st pattern tropical tunics. The 10Pz Div Recon Bn wore the gold/yellow piping.

Remember that the 10th Pz were issued new 1st pattern tropical tunics, but the black Pz tabs were removed from their used black wraps and attached to the newly issued tunics (same for the tk's). For me these photos show the used black tabs with gold/yellow piping on newly issued tropical tunics.

[90th Light]

Thanks for posting the stills Derka, great stuff

The color stills from this film clearly show black tabs with gold/yellow piping on 1st pattern tropical tunics. The 10Pz Div Recon Bn wore the gold/yellow piping.

Remember that the 10th Pz were issued new 1st pattern tropical tunics, but the black Pz tabs were removed from their used black wraps and attached to the newly issued tunics (same for the tk's). For me these photos show the used black tabs with gold/yellow piping on newly issued tropical tunics.

Any colour film of the 10th Panzer division in Afrika has been colorised post war. No-one in this debate can rely on that for any accuracy. It in fact, showed a slight range of darker shades.

Here is what Michael Pruett had to say about it,

Chris

The driver of the captured M3A1. Hard to tell what color the piping is and looks darker than rose pink.

[90th Light]

Close-up of the driver in the previous photograph. Also hard to tell what the base fabric of the tabs are. Tropical cloth or field gray wool?

Interesting from a collector who has studied a lot of panzer photos and Pz. collar tabs,

Chris

[90th Light]

On the other hand, black Pz. collar tabs on a tropical tunic "stick out like a dog's balls" as a New Zealander serving in North Africa used to discribe it.

Worn, faded, dusty or even brand new,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Great photos Chris, except none of them are from the film stills derka posted of the recon unit. I was only referring to the stills from the recon unit. They are wearing newly issued tropical tunics with their old tabs from their wraps imo.