Panzergrenadier stug wrap collar patches info

[Alex Ciavaglia]

Did you ever seen any original photos of a white or green profiled collar patches mounted on a Panzergrenadier or infantry units wraps? I think the most of them were the Einheitslitzen without piping or, at least, without any litzen.
Any your comment is welcome.

Panzergrenadier in Poland:

[afrikasandman]

Member Derka posted a PzGrn wrap on the Pz gren thread in the collections part of hte forum. I would pay dearly for one. Matt

[Alex Ciavaglia]

I would like to watch some original photos of well documented panzergrenadier or infantry unit wore the wraps...

[Gustavo66]

Hello,

here you can see one:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=442324

[derka]

Alex, this one for instance looks white piped :

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...hwappacher.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...hwappacher.jpg

derka

[Alex Ciavaglia]

Thank you guys. Both examples (Gustavo's one is a stunning example!) own to the GD Regiment the èlite for the Infanterie but, how many was common this kind of insigna on the other PG and infantry units?

[derka]

Ok, "GD" units are apart, as Skijäger units.
This one with piped colar tabs is well known from Pz-Lehr-Div, Normandy june 1944 :



AFIK, feldgrau wraps with green piped colar tabs were issued to some panzergrenadiere units who had SPW's (mainly SdKfz 251).
Officialy, only armored vehicles crews were supposed to get those specific uniforms, but not members of fighting squads.
That said, in a same Pzgren Rgt, all fighting squads were rarely in the configuration of fully armored infantry (Gepanzerte), but rather a mixt at the Abt level with motorized infantry.

According KStN, there were not armored halftracks into a standart infantry Rgt composition, hence no feldgrau wraps with white piped colar tabs.

But crew members of Sfl Pak, Flak or infantry guns, belonging to Kp's attached to Pzgren Rgt and sometimes to some infantry Rgt could wore sometimes feldgrau wraps, with same color of piping than the Rgt, green or white, and litzen on their colar tabs too.

This is why, IMHO, a white piped feldgrau wrap is rarer than a even seldomly encountered green piped one : they were issued to a very small number of personnel into a minority of infantry Rgt only.

And it is often very difficult to identify for sure such a wrap with its color of piping on a period b&w pic, if there is no legend behind or if it is not inside a SB or WP, or without a vehicle around with unit's markings, etc...

[OSS]

I have never seen a lime green piped wrapper that I believed, though they may have existed. The troops seen in Normandy wearing piped tabs are from Pz. Aufklarungs Lehr Abteilung 130 with their tabs piped in pink (imo).

[OSS]

The following photo is of a Panzer Lehr soldier, possibly a Panzergrenadier; his tabs appear to have had their piping removed. He has been awarded the Pz. assault badge in bronze.

[Schulterklappen]

Gd

Another GD

[derka]

I have never seen a lime green piped wrapper that I believed, though they may have existed. The troops seen in Normandy wearing piped tabs are from Pz. Aufklarungs Lehr Abteilung 130 with their tabs piped in pink (imo).

Well OSS, althought i generaly follow your opinion about armored related items, i shall admit that in this particular case, at this stage, i disagree.

1) Look at # 1148 here :

http://184.172.36.50/forums/showthre...=69690&page=77

2) Considering your portait pic above, i'm sure you know what is exposed in pages 140/143 of Pruett/Edwards book "Field uniforms of german panzer elite" about change of piping color in 1944 in Pzgren Rgt 901 and 902, so i don't insist on this point.

3) Here is another portrait of a Lehr member, but this one clearly show piped colar tabs :



This one lelongs to Lehr too, but he is a sani NCO :



And this one (not a "GD" or a Lehr member, already shown on WAF)) borrowed to Mr Davis' site certainy don't show a piping color pink or gold yellow neither lemmon yellow, but rather white (imo) :



That said, this 901' Lehr member (pics already shown on WAF, but i don't remember who is the lucky owner of this SB) shows too colar tabs without any piping :





So at least, we can observe variations despite official rules or theories about color of piped coar tabs on feldgrau wraps ?
Even if it is realy difficult to identify for sure a color, for instance like here if we focus on the only man clearly showing piped colar tabs among those in the 251 above :




4) The pic i put above could show either a panzergrenadiere, member of II/902 or of Pz-Aufkl-Lehr-Abt 130, because this pic was take in the afternoon of june 10th, 1944, with several other well known ones, in la ferme des Pallières at Juaye-Mondaye, at the crossroad of la route départementale 178 and the road from Ellon to Bernières-Bocage, around 8 km south of Bayeux.
For instance, the officer in the forground with a speicial arm grade on the left arm of his hbt wrap is Leutnant Steindamm, who commanded 1.Kp of I/Pzrgt 6.
There was 5 Panther Ausf A around the farm, and other SPW and motorcycles.

Just for memory, the division OB was :



And for Panzeraufklärungs-Lehr-Abteilung (PALA) 130 :
Abteilungsstab mit Nachrichten-Zug (2x 250/3, 7x 251/3, 1x 251/8, 2x 251/11)
1. Kompanie (25x 234/2)
2. Kompanie (9x 250/5, 16x 250/9)
3. Kompanie (22x 250/1, 2x 250/3, 4x 250/7, 3x 250/8)
4. Kompanie (22x 250/1, 2x 250/3, 4x 250/7, 3x 250/8)
5. Kompanie (6x 251/1, 2x 251/3, 7x 251/7, 6x 251/9, 4x 251/17)
Versorgungs-Kompanie

So the pic showing a 251 with heavy MG42 mount can only refer to 5. Schwere Kp of this unit, and those of this 251/9 too :



It is impossible to distinguish the color of piping :



There could be at least one officer of this reco unit that day, on the left of this pic (with an alter art schirmütze) :



But Leutnant Gerstenmeier belonged to 3.Kp of PALA 130, and i'm not aware of any SdkFZ 250 OF ANY TYPE visible on pics taken in the area that day.

Now, if you check on this site, about 251 markings :

http://www.network54.com/Forum/57159...z+251+markings

You can see particulary those pics from the 251/9 :





On this one, the Mondaye Abbey is visible in the background :



And we know that markings for SdKfz 251 in I/902 were applied in the middle of the hull (thanks to my friend Didier Lodieu for this pic in his superb book about the panther Abt of 116.Pzdiv) :





The II./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 902 went into action on the morning of 8 June, according H. Ritgen in his book "Die Gechichte der Panzer-Lehr-Division im Westen 1944-1945 ".

This is why, based on those pics, i believe green piped colar tabs were used on feldgrau wraps in this case.
Of course, it is only my hypothesis, so feel free to discuss, correct or criticize it.

[OSS]

Well OSS, althought i generaly follow your opinion about armored related items, i shall admit that in this particular case, at this stage, i disagree.

So at least, we can observe variations despite official rules or theories about color of piped coar tabs on feldgrau wraps ?

Thank you, I usually find myself in agreement with you as well and I'm not sure I disagree with you now on the subject of lime geen piped wrappers. They are something that I have heard about and would love to have but have never encountered a bonafide example. I am reasonably certain that some of the units in the two Pz. Gren. Rgts. (901 & 902) in the Panzer Lehr Division were issued wrappers but I am short of being able to swear that their tabs were piped in green (as they should have been). I find it curious that several of the photos of known Pz. Grenadiers show separate tabs with piping seemingly removed. What does that suggest to you? I take it to mean that because lime green tabs were not available, the piping was removed from red or pink piped tabs (at least in those cases).

[Chet Sowersby]

Wonderful pictures! Thank you for sharing them.

Chet

[derka]

I find it curious that several of the photos of known Pz. Grenadiers show separate tabs with piping seemingly removed. What does that suggest to you? I take it to mean that because lime green tabs were not available, the piping was removed from red or pink piped tabs (at least in those cases).

My thought too, shortage of appropriate colar tabs certainly explains the removal of unapropriate piping considering unit's designation, particulary (imo) during at least first half of 1943, when litzen had to replace tk's or "empty" tabs according new regs from january.
I suppose those mixt were common when a man changed of unit, and logicaly even more with rare colors of piping :









I noticed too that early tabs were used on wraps, even in "GD" for white :









Shortage adaptation for rare piping or esthétical wear ?

I think those early tabs were not factory applied; and that only red and pink were on feldgrau wraps.

Probably at the end, only standart litzen would have been the general reg for feldgrau wraps, for standart rational production (like for the removal of soutache on sidecap at the autumn of 1942).

derka

[galizien41]

Not a complete wrapper but at least the tab. I hope Mike does not mind me showing his old tab that resides in my collection now.