Assistance with Unit Abbreviation J.R.H.

[Shawn Southern]

Gents:

The following is engraved on German lyra-glockenspiel which I believe dates to the Imperial period, Weimar at the latest:

J.R.H. 13 No 93 (Note the "No" is engraved with the "o" written almost as a superscript and double underlined.

I did a quick on-line search for Imperial Infanterie Regiment 13 and found an Imperial unit Infanterie Regiment 13 (1st Westphalian) Herwarth von Bittenfeld. Perhaps this explains the "H" although I don't see any subordinate units numbered 93. Additionally, I did not think the Germans used No. as an abbreviation for "number," but rather "Nr" ?

Any help appreciated. I'm stumped!

Thanks!

Best Regards,

Shawn

[Johnny R]

Could it be Swiss?

[Shawn Southern]

Hi Johnny. How are you?

It's definitely a German instrument and the schweife are green and white....I suspect Saxon. Of course those could have been placed on the instrument at any time during it's life. Given the general shape of the lyra, I'm beginning to think it's probably from the Imperial period. So, I posted as well on the Imperial forum.

Of course, even if the instrument is German, that is not to say it could not have been used by the Swiss. Is there a particular reason you suspect Swiss?

On a related note, I happened across some of my photos of an Imperial period Obermusikmeister's shoulder board house pattern. I was surprised to again find the use of "No" so, if nothing else I have learned that this abbreviation was used by the Germans!

[Johnny R]

Yes, they us No. that is not an issue, The unit number is odd but it is hard to know what the 93 is etc. Can you post a picture of the stampings? IR 13 was a Wurttemberg unit in the RH.

[Shawn Southern]

Engraving

Here it is Johnny...

[Johnny R]

Prety hard to be sure on that, in the RH infantry units were named as well as numbered, there was a Infanterie-Regiment Halberstadt- IR 12 and Infanterie-Regiment Heilbronn which was IR 34. The 13 might be the company and the No. may be an inventory number etc. All just guesses of course.

[Shawn Southern]

Thanks!

Thanks Johnny. I now lean more to the No. 93 being the maker's serial number. It's unusual in that most maker's also engraved their firms name when they applied a serial number, though. I like the engraving and the instrument is undoubtedly original and pre-WWII.

Shawn

[Stepdale]

Might it also be from an Austro-Hungarian unit? I checked a list that shows Infanterieregiment Jung-Starhemburg Nr.13 in Troppau (Opava in the Czech Republic now) and an Infanterieregiment Nr.93 in Krakau, so probably not, but maybe someone knowledgeable on AH units could pipe in with something else.
Dale

[Shawn Southern]

Dale, thanks for chiming in! That is an interesting possibility that I had not considered.

Shawn

[Johnny R]

That is also why I asked if it might be Swiss etc. it pays to check all the options. I could not find a detailed list of Swiss units on line for the early 20th Century but it should be somewhere. Pretty hard to nail this one.

[Shawn Southern]

Swiss

Johnny:

Thanks. I will look further into the possibility that this could be for a Swiss unit.

Shawn

[Johnny R]

I am not sure about that idea but it pays to look at everything. It could be something else as well. Let us know if you figure it out.

I saw a complete WH Jingling Johnny in its storage or mailing box maybe 30 years ago for 750 dollars and should have bought it but could not figure out where to put it then .

[Shawn Southern]

Johnny!!!!!

I saw a complete WH Jingling Johnny in its storage or mailing box maybe 30 years ago for 750 dollars and should have bought it but could not figure out where to put it then .

Johnny, you ARE the Devil!

I will certainly be sure to let you know what I find out, assuming I am able to solve the mystery.

Shawn

[pauke]

Id

Perhaps this isn't even from a military unit and the inscription is someone's or a group's initials and a date 13. No(v). (18)93. even though the date isn't normal German. Is it even German? That's my guess until new information is forthcoming.

[Shawn Southern]

Glockenspiel

Pauke:

Thanks for your thoughts. I think all possibilities should be considered and your ideas are interesting. I still believe the instrument is German but of course German instrument makers certainly exported.

East regards,

Sbawn