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    #31
    Post-war re-sewn eagle - without any doubt or discussion.
    The patch and straps...who knows? Only a close examination of the patch would reveal any clues.
    Definitely an HBT 2nd model tunic in your first photo, Chris.
    The 2nd pattern tropical tunic with the continental insignia is tantilizing...the tunic's condition is near mint and why(how) would a private get away with adding such an obvious alteration to an issued piece (imagine that standing in ranks?) The use of continental insignia on tropical tunics is well known. I have period sewn continental insignia on tropical tunics and photographic evidence is prolific.
    There is no doubt that too many collectors place far too much emphasis on tropical uniform being worn in North Africa (un-informd, nostalgia and financial reasons).
    I do not call these tunics 'm42' as they were in fact first manufactured in 1941 (therefore inaccurate if we use the collector's term of 'm' this or that).
    Great photos Chris - good to see you posting images!
    Regards,
    Mark
    New Zealand (NOT 'Middle Earth')
    Last edited by NZMark; 03-10-2013, 06:10 PM.

    Comment

      #32
      Originally posted by NZMark View Post
      I do not call these tunics 'm42' as they were in fact first manufactured in 1941 (therefore inaccurate if we use the collector's term of 'm' this or that).
      Great photos Chris - good to see you posting images!
      Regards,
      Mark
      New Zealand (NOT 'Middle Earth')
      Interesting. I have never seen a pleatless (M-42 if you will) tropical tunic dated '41, though I have definitely seen a number of first pattern tunics dated '42. Perhaps there was some confusion amongst the manufacturers.

      Comment

        #33
        Originally posted by Johnny R View Post
        The first tunic looks like a second pattern HBT to me.
        Hello Johnny,

        Yes I agree that a second pattern HBT is the most likely possibility if not the answer.

        "but"// and there is always a but in life or collecting;

        hydrid tropical tunics made of the tropical twill cloth as opposed to the HBT, field/ Italian made tropical or private purchase tropical are also less likely possibilities.

        The reality is that when it comes to Italy 43-45, one sometimes sees a tropical tunic or two which buttons all the way up to the collar as the images posted below show,

        Chris

        p.s. note also the lack of silver piping on the tropical officer M40's. Another interesting point and a rare beast by that stage of the war, discussed in another thread recently http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=Sudfront.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by 90th Light; 03-11-2013, 04:08 AM.

        Comment

          #34
          Interesting. I have never seen a pleatless (M-42 if you will) tropical tunic dated '41, though I have definitely seen a number of first pattern tunics dated '42. Perhaps there was some confusion amongst the manufacturers.


          Here you go, Bob's wonderful 2nd pattern dated B41. Hope he doesn't mind it has been posted before in another thread that i will bring back up....
          There are also some photos of the 2nd pattern at Alamein, but haven't been able to locate them presently.

          This is the link with Bob's tunic and some incredible photos from PzV and others.

          http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=226695
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 03-11-2013, 03:59 AM.

          Comment

            #35
            The reason that I posted the possible second model HBT ? tunic in post number 13, is not because it was a factory tropical tunic but because it was an example of a tunic in Italy with no collar patches or cap eagle. Hence the need for field application if required later on.

            It is interesting that the officer in the possible private purchase tropical tunic also has no collar patches ???

            May be he is also in a penal unit or is a foreign volunteer ??? but I think this is extremely unlikely.

            There is also the possibility that he is wearing a naval KM tropical tunic although he does appear to be a WH officer ???

            Again the range that was worn in Italy 43-45,

            Chris

            p.s. at least the officer has what appears to be possibly an EM tropical cap eagle but his breast eagle looks to be a continental type ?
            Attached Files
            Last edited by 90th Light; 03-11-2013, 04:23 AM.

            Comment

              #36
              The tunic you posted earlier is a second pattern HBT, the way it hangs, the wrinkling and the fraying is text book for a worn HBT. There is no question or debate that is what it is.

              The light colored tunic is probably a tailor/field made example, it is not an issue tunic with those scalloped pocket flaps. Like WWI tunics, second War tunics were also worn without collar tabs in the field as "fatigue" tunics. The Officers white Summer tunic is an example of this and they aiso wore lightweight and light colored field tunics without collar tabs as well. This example is probably duck or a similar fabric.

              People familiar with German wartime clothing know all of this. There are exceptions but they are unusual and most of what is judged as a possible variation of wartime clothing is more then often just fake. You cannot use wartime photos to suggest all odd ball items are real or you end up with a collection full of garbage and maybes. Each piece needs to be judged by itself.

              Reference books are key in this hobby and studying period clothing when it can be viewed.

              Comment

                #37
                Originally posted by Johnny R View Post
                The tunic you posted earlier is a second pattern HBT, the way it hangs, the wrinkling and the fraying is text book for a worn HBT. There is no question or debate that is what it is.

                The light colored tunic is probably a tailor/field made example, it is not an issue tunic with those scalloped pocket flaps. Like WWI tunics, second War tunics were also worn without collar tabs in the field as "fatigue" tunics. The Officers white Summer tunic is an example of this and they aiso wore lightweight and light colored field tunics without collar tabs as well. This example is probably duck or a similar fabric.

                People familiar with German wartime clothing know all of this. There are exceptions but they are unusual and most of what is judged as a possible variation of wartime clothing is more then often just fake. You cannot use wartime photos to suggest all odd ball items are real or you end up with a collection full of garbage and maybes. Each piece needs to be judged by itself.

                Reference books are key in this hobby and studying period clothing when it can be viewed.
                Word

                Comment

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
                  Interesting. I have never seen a pleatless (M-42 if you will) tropical tunic dated '41, though I have definitely seen a number of first pattern tunics dated '42. Perhaps there was some confusion amongst the manufacturers.


                  Here you go, Bob's wonderful 2nd pattern dated B41. Hope he doesn't mind it has been posted before in another thread that i will bring back up....
                  There are also some photos of the 2nd pattern at Alamein, but haven't been able to locate them presently.

                  This is the link with Bob's tunic and some incredible photos from PzV and others.

                  http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=226695
                  I remain unconvinced; I see no reason for any manufacturer to anticipate design specification changes in German military contracts. The first pattern tropical tunic (and it's continental woolen counterpart) continued to be manufactured into 1942 until the specifications were updated to omit the pleats. Any example without pleats dated '41 is, in my view, an anomaly; that is either mis-stamped or reworked.

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Johnny R View Post
                    The tunic you posted earlier is a second pattern HBT, the way it hangs, the wrinkling and the fraying is text book for a worn HBT. There is no question or debate that is what it is.

                    The light colored tunic is probably a tailor/field made example, it is not an issue tunic with those scalloped pocket flaps. Like WWI tunics, second War tunics were also worn without collar tabs in the field as "fatigue" tunics. The Officers white Summer tunic is an example of this and they aiso wore lightweight and light colored field tunics without collar tabs as well. This example is probably duck or a similar fabric.

                    People familiar with German wartime clothing know all of this. There are exceptions but they are unusual and most of what is judged as a possible variation of wartime clothing is more then often just fake. You cannot use wartime photos to suggest all odd ball items are real or you end up with a collection full of garbage and maybes. Each piece needs to be judged by itself.

                    Reference books are key in this hobby and studying period clothing when it can be viewed.

                    No danger of me buying a varation from the norm tropical tunic Johnny,

                    or any other tropical tunic these days. I am seeing too many which are having every trick in the book pulled to put them back together as "Afrika" and then flogged off to the unspecting for record prices. Amazing what you see for sale where these days.

                    Variations from the norm did happen at the time however, and I agree that the officers tunic in post number 33 is most likely a private purchase tailor example with scalloped pockets and exaggerated collar.

                    Pictured below is an example of an officer "crusher" cap made from the "duck" to which you refer. Several would write it off as bad or be uneasy on that point but if you know your crushers then you will know that it is 101% correct and very rare.

                    Reference books can be hit and miss depending on when they were written and by who. I do agree however, that nothing beats a hands on inspection,

                    Chris
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by 90th Light; 03-11-2013, 01:21 PM.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      I do not collect hats and know nothing about them. I will admit when I do not know something. The hat looks like it is made from windbluse-type cloth or a similar material for a Plash-palatka.

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
                        Wow this thread spun out of control.....

                        Maybe we can get back to the tunic ? Where are all the Mark(s) ? These guys and others know their stuff and we need more knowing members to contribute to the WAF.

                        And Chris makes a good point about tropical tunics being restored always to look Afrikan even though its a 2nd or 3rd pattern from the Sudfront. Just not in this threadstarters case. As i am sure its a POW tunic that has been restored badly as mentioned already.

                        Just got off work, and am now going to get a little pissed (Guinness) Johnny as its Sat nite.
                        Greetings All,

                        The tunic posted at the start of this thread appears to be an original tunic . The insignia has been replaced. We will never know when or by whom but the sewing holes still show in the cloth of the tunic around the eagle and on the eagle itself.
                        The collar tabs are the mid war style which are incorrect for this tunic but examples have been seen of their use on a tropical tunic. The application of the tabs is terrible!
                        The shoulder boards appear to be original and being slip-on style could have been slipped on last week or during the war.
                        There is no shadow below the medical specialty patch so,to me, appears to have been sewn one recently.
                        In my opinion this tunic is a postwar repatched original tunic. It has the value of the loose insignia and the tunic itself.
                        I also would like to apologize to pavels 2005 for having to set through this squabble just to get an opinion on his tunic.IMO it is just very bad from.

                        Fred

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Johnny R View Post
                          I do not collect hats and know nothing about them. I will admit when I do not know something. The hat looks like it is made from windbluse-type cloth or a similar material for a Plash-palatka.
                          Like-wise Johnny,

                          I have no problem making similar admissions or admitting when I am wrong but I do like to see something fully discussed or explained. That way the most members reading get the most out of it.

                          Any thing can be fobbed off with a one liner but when your dead and gone, how has that helped the collecting community. Then there will be those that follow and claim to know exactly what you meant when you posted the one liner at the time.

                          No I prefer up front and on the level which I have noted is also your style.

                          I realise that I have diverted into hats but the reason I posted the images of that is because the "crusher" is a classic example of an officer private purchase item made of "duck or a similar fabric",

                          Chris

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Originally posted by OSS View Post
                            I remain unconvinced; I see no reason for any manufacturer to anticipate design specification changes in German military contracts. The first pattern tropical tunic (and it's continental woolen counterpart) continued to be manufactured into 1942 until the specifications were updated to omit the pleats. Any example without pleats dated '41 is, in my view, an anomaly; that is either mis-stamped or reworked.
                            Ramsey,
                            They were not 'anticipated' - they were factory made in the usual manner after field trials. I have seen at least three run-of-the-mill factory produced 1941 dated 2nd pattern tropical tunics - not anomolies or re-worked in any way. Keep in mind 3rd pattern tunics have already been proven to have been manufactured and worn in Africa in 1942 (another reason I won't call them 'm43' pattern tunics).
                            Regards,
                            Mark
                            New Zealand

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Originally posted by NZMark View Post
                              Ramsey,
                              They were not 'anticipated' - they were factory made in the usual manner after field trials. I have seen at least three run-of-the-mill factory produced 1941 dated 2nd pattern tropical tunics - not anomolies or re-worked in any way. Keep in mind 3rd pattern tunics have already been proven to have been manufactured and worn in Africa in 1942 (another reason I won't call them 'm43' pattern tunics).
                              Regards,
                              Mark
                              New Zealand
                              Others may choose to believe that tropical and standard Heer tunics without pleats were manufactured and issued in 1941, but I am a nonbeliever. When would your "transitional" '40/'42 tunic with the pleats on the upper pockets and no pleats on the bottom ones have been manufactured, 1940?

                              Comment

                                #45
                                It's clearly dated 1942, Ramsey...as you know - and completely out of context because we are then talking about another issue - using up stock to fulfill a contract - apples and oranges. I won't comment on continental tunics as this discussion is not about them.
                                I can't help what you 'choose' to accept. It's a fact. I study my area of interest and learn about it. If some new evidence/information comes along then I'm open to it - why be so closed minded?
                                No - not miss-stamped, not re-worked...and there are a few out there in different conditions ranging from 'mint' to well worn.
                                Mark
                                New Zealand
                                Last edited by NZMark; 03-11-2013, 11:16 PM.

                                Comment

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