Tropical heer tunic - doctor

[Jan B]

Yes I'm agree. It was a stripped tropical 2nd tunic and now with replaced regular heer tabs and boards. However all is original and nice.
Just the eagle is the right one.

Cheers,
steiner99

Pictures are bad but the straps look like LW on my screen...Or made in Italian wool??

[90th Light]

There are more images of tropical tunics being worn in Italy 43-45 in this thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=Sudfront

In my opinion there is a very good chance that the one which started this thread just might be one of them. On the other hand, some stuff has been mucked around with since WW2.

I would need the tunic in hand to be able to say more but it would be interesting to see if there are clear signs of other insignia removed and if there is any fading under the continental badges,

Chris

[afrikasandman]

Chris,

Well we can play hypothetical all day but there is no doubt that the eagle is replaced. I would say its without a doubt from Italy or late France but the seller needs to post more pics. Matt

[90th Light]

Chris,

Well we can play hypothetical all day but there is no doubt that the eagle is replaced. I would say its without a doubt from Italy or late France but the seller needs to post more pics. Matt

Hello Matt,

yes I agree that there is speculation on my part and confused in post number 17 that I can not say more without a hands on inspection or as you are saying, improved images at the very least. Not only is there the question of the eagle but also the collar tabs.

My point however, is that tropical tunics were worn in Italy with insignia and equipment combinations that seem wrong to a collector schooled in what is correct for Afrika. Such tropical tunics are quickly declared incorrect or post-war put togethers. They then have their original war time continental insignia removed and replaced with tropical insignia to retore them back to a perceived original configaration.

As far as I know, this issue or point of history has never been addressed by the collecting community. The focus is always on what is right for Afrika and anything early is always assumed to be Afrika,

Chris

[OSS]

I am not familiar with tropical tunics which were produced with continental insignia and believe that the tunic shown at the outset is an original tunic with both eagle and collartabs replaced.

[90th Light]

I am not familiar with tropical tunics which were produced with continental insignia and believe that the tunic shown at the outset is an original tunic with both eagle and collartabs replaced.

Hello OSS,

yes I agree that the collars on the tunic which started this thread certainly look replaced and I am not trying to argue that they may not be.

What I am saying, period tropical tunics may exist with original period applied continental insignia which has been over-looked by collectors in the past.

Have a look at the image in post number 15, the eagle is clearly an early continental example with bottle green backing.

The image in post number 13 clearly shows no collar tabs being worn. Now if he goes and field apply's a pair of tabs, what would such an application look like today ?

While image number 14 shows a later field grey back rank stripe & boards

This got me thinking, we look at a period image of a tropical tunic and we always assume tropical eagle, tropical tabs. But Italy 43-45, are they always the tropical type of insignia ? What would a mouse grey or field grey backed insignia on a tropical tunic look like in a period image ???

Chris

[Johnny R]

The first tunic looks like a second pattern HBT to me.

[90th Light]

Another example of continenal insignia being worn on what it is not suppose to be worn on in Italy 43-45.

Have a look at that for a period, rough re-application of a (field grey backed ?) breast eagle.

Bottle green or panzer black boards ?

More images of this posted here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=657985

"They never did that.............................................. ..........................................Yes they did"

Chris

[OSS]

Hello OSS,

yes I agree that the collars on the tunic which started this thread certainly look replaced and I am not trying to argue that they may not be.

What I am saying, period tropical tunics may exist with original period applied continental insignia which has been over-looked by collectors in the past.

Have a look at the image in post number 15, the eagle is clearly an early continental example with bottle green backing.

The image in post number 13 clearly shows no collar tabs being worn. Now if he goes and field apply's a pair of tabs, what would such an application look like today ?

While image number 14 shows a later field grey back rank stripe & boards

This got me thinking, we look at a period image of a tropical tunic and we always assume tropical eagle, tropical tabs. But Italy 43-45, are they always the tropical type of insignia ? What would a mouse grey or field grey backed insignia on a tropical tunic look like in a period image ???

Chris

The first image you posted (#13) is definitely a (M-42) HBT tunic and the fact that it has no tabs (and the field cap has no insignia?) suggests to me either HIWI, Penal Battalion, or foreign volunteer. It should have collar insignia and almost surelly did when it left the factory. The other two are tropical issue (the lack of buttonholes on the lapels tells us this); the first (#14) is unadulterated but with wool straps and chevron, and the second (#15) has been upgraded with a flatwire NCO eagle and dark green (M-36) straps and chevron, such adornments were common in Italy and not unheard of in Afrika.

[90th Light]

I am not familiar with tropical tunics which were produced with continental insignia

the second (#15) has been upgraded with a flatwire NCO eagle and dark green (M-36) straps and chevron, such adornments were common in Italy and not unheard of in Afrika.

Hello OSS,

well that is interesting because the Obergefreiter in post number 15 would not have completed the full course of training in an NCO school so would he have the right to wear a "flatwire NCO" and NCO bayonet knot ?

He is only trained to Obergefreiter level thus can still only wear EM adornments (full parade dress excluded) unless he breaks the regulations so is he wearing a white or mouse grey eagle on a dark bottle green backround ?

Shoulder boards like that with piping which went all the way round were not heard of in Italy or Afrika,

Chris

[OSS]

Hello OSS,

well that is interesting because the Obergefreiter in post number 15 would not have completed the full course of training in an NCO school so would he have the right to wear a "flatwire NCO" and NCO bayonet knot ?

He is only trained to Obergefreiter level thus can still only wear EM adornments (full parade dress excluded) unless he breaks the regulations so is he wearing a white or mouse grey eagle on a dark bottle green backround ?

Shoulder boards like that with piping which went all the way round were not heard of in Italy or Afrika,

Chris

It is probably too late to have him put on report for this infraction, at any rate I stand by my statement that this eagle was an addition, whether it is flat wire or plain BEVO.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Interesting discussion The eagle and medic badge have been added post War. Which throws all the insignia into question as to post War.
There is no shadow underneath the exposed medic badge for example. The threadstarter is a stripped tunic that has been modified post war. From the fading i would say this tunic has a good chance to have been worn in Afrika.

Chris, those are some really nice photos and Italy had the most varied German units of any theatre, along with the Allies too. More variations would naturally occur there....

But not all early tropical surviving items are from the DAK. The Pz Div in Greece (2nd or 1st Pz Div ?) for example wore the 1st pattern tropical tunics with M40's. They also wore the black Pz tabs with tk's on this tropical 1st pattern, similar to the 7th Pz Div in Tunisia in '43.

[Johnny R]

Interesting discussion. The eagle and medic badge have been added post War. Which throws all the insignia into question as to post War.
There is no shadow underneath the exposed medic badge for example. The threadstarter is a stripped tunic that has been modified post war. From the fading i would say this tunic has a good chance to have been worn in Afrika.

Chris, those are some really nice photos and Italy had the most varied German units of any theatre, along with the Allies too. More variations would naturally occur there....

I agree but some of the tunics are HBT, at least the first. I know Gandolf missed that but hey, I am pissed right? The tunic that started the thread is a nice example but with restored insignia. Probably a POW or post war stripped and later restored example contrary to sages with magical powers.

[Greg B]

I think it is very ovious the insignia has been replaced especially the breast eagle. the close up of the breast eagle in post 6 is very ovious that the eagle has been replaced. The previous holes are very evident & the new stitching has not gone throught the existing holes...not even a great attempt at trying to pass of replaced insignia IMO!

Greg

[Tim O'Keefe]

Wow this thread spun out of control.....

Maybe we can get back to the tunic ? Where are all the Mark(s) ? These guys and others know their stuff and we need more knowing members to contribute to the WAF.

And Chris makes a good point about tropical tunics being restored always to look Afrikan even though its a 2nd or 3rd pattern from the Sudfront. Just not in this threadstarters case. As i am sure its a POW tunic that has been restored badly as mentioned already.

Just got off work, and am now going to get a little pissed (Guinness) Johnny as its Sat nite.