Use of nylon in the third reich

[Joey Charles]

Hi everybody Im just curious about the question of nylon thread never being used during the period from 1940/45 for uniform manufacture in germany.We all know that it was first manufactured in 1939 by an american firm and used on military equipment throughout the war.Many big american corporations had business interests in germany untill wars end and supplied them with matierials through a third party country I.E GM amoung many others which the american goverment turned a blind eye to.My question is did nylon thread find its way to germany through this channel or captured stock from russia(LEND LEASE) or italy on its surrender.Any opinions?.Joey Charles

[derspiess63]

Hi everybody Im just curious about the question of nylon thread never being used during the period from 1940/45 for uniform manufacture in germany.We all know that it was first manufactured in 1939 by an american firm and used on military equipment throughout the war.Many big american corporations had business interests in germany untill wars end and supplied them with matierials through a third party country I.E GM amoung many others which the american goverment turned a blind eye to.My question is did nylon thread find its way to germany through this channel or captured stock from russia(LEND LEASE) or italy on its surrender.Any opinions?.Joey Charles

Here's my reply Joey Charles, should I find a tunic held together with nylon thread I'd steer clear from it,no matter its conditions,its whereabouts,its being chockfull of all those details found on/in original garments and the Pope himself swearing that it was the very same tunic worn by a relative of his!
I'd stay with my cotton,rayon and animal fiber threads....I may be wrong,but better safe than sorry!
Keep safe
Manny
P.S.;very dangerous topic here....we're risking to be covered with "Genuine"or,better still"Tchenuine" M44/45 tunics made with "captured" stock of ICI/DUPONT/AREXONS nylon thread!Old Roman judges used to say"In dubio pro reo-when in doubt let the offender free or-better an offender out of prison than an innocent man in a cell!",but in this case I'd say"In dubio...BEAT IT !

[keifer kahn]

I too wouldnt touch any item with nylon thread but,

Well,actually nylon was patented earlier than 1939 by duponts in the US.It was 1937.It was invented to replace the diminishing and perceived threatened silk stocks from asia,due to the japenese threat to mainland asia

Duponts had a cartel agreement with I.G Farben in germany in the 30,s.A cartel agreement entitled both comapnies to share patents.I.G Farben obtained the formula from Duponts and perfected the german version of nylon known as"Perlon".I have several german magazines from 1938,showing stocking ads with perlon mentioned.
Large quantities were spun by several of I.G.farben factories.The records of perlon usage unfortunately were in the I.G.farben factories that were in the russian zone of control at the end of the war.The factories were reopened by the russians and the former german perlon manufactured by the russians.

No doubt some perlon was used by the german war industry.And in all probability was also used in the war textile industry.
This raises an interesting point.Perlon is nylon .WHich basically means wartime perlon when burn tested will melt and emit a "burnt plastic smell".Also black smoke.These indicators, according to collectors who believe only wartime thread burns like cotton,are indicators of modern synthetics.
The thing is,ask the average collector who thinks he knows what he is doing in regards to authenticity checks ,wont of even heard of perlon.

[derspiess63]

I too wouldnt touch any item with nylon thread but,

Well,actually nylon was patented earlier than 1939 by duponts in the US.It was 1937.It was invented to replace the diminishing and perceived threatened silk stocks from asia,due to the japenese threat to mainland asia

Duponts had a cartel agreement with I.G Farben in germany in the 30,s.A cartel agreement entitled both comapnies to share patents.I.G Farben obtained the formula from Duponts and perfected the german version of nylon known as"Perlon".I have several german magazines from 1938,showing stocking ads with perlon mentioned.
Large quantities were spun by several of I.G.farben factories.The records of perlon usage unfortunately were in the I.G.farben factories that were in the russian zone of control at the end of the war.The factories were reopened by the russians and the former german perlon manufactured by the russians.

No doubt some perlon was used by the german war industry.And in all probability was also used in the war textile industry.
This raises an interesting point.Perlon is nylon .WHich basically means wartime perlon when burn tested will melt and emit a "burnt plastic smell".Also black smoke.These indicators, according to collectors who believe only wartime thread burns like cotton,are indicators of modern synthetics.
The thing is,ask the average collector who thinks he knows what he is doing in regards to authenticity checks ,wont of even heard of perlon.

Amen to that Keifer....and congratulations for the accurate explaination !
Let's not forget that not only cotton/rayon thread were used, but animal fiber thread as well!this thread,when burnt, melts like nylon and emits black smoke BUTit smells like burnt animal hair and the small glob resulting from its melting,when rubbed between your finger tips,crumbles like the tip of a burnt match, insttead of being hard like the one resulting from burning nylon!
once again you're well informed Keifer,and it's nice to have people sharing these facts with other collectors!
Manny

P.S.;I said ICI and AREXONS to indicate modern nylon thread

[keifer kahn]

Im with you Manny,


There are some pretty in depth books on synthetic fibres but i cant say they are the most stimulating reading.
Its fact the germans made Perlon prior to ww2 and used some during the war.(I know some of the elastic used in german field gaiters contained an early polyeurathane,which was a derivative of perlon.Perlon -T if memory serves me correct).
But i would doubt if much production was done during the war,as you need petroleum to make perlon(as you do with nylon),and im quite sure most most fuels would of gone to the war effort.
It was definately used in the hosiery industry prior to the war. There is also a famous picture of clothes iron being suspended from thread of perlon in another magazine article about the new type of fibre.This was to show its strength.
Perhaps the remaining stocks at the outbreak of war were earmarked war stocks and then used as germany,s material crisis worsened.But to what degree will be a mystery for a while,as the russians took the factories and all the appropriate records,So till they are released,we wont know what extent it was used.
But yeah,im not going to start ignoring melting threads if i find them.
Could well be Perlon but most of time it would be postwar polyester.

[derspiess63]

Im with you Manny,


There are some pretty in depth books on synthetic fibres but i cant say they are the most stimulating reading.
Its fact the germans made Perlon prior to ww2 and used some during the war.(I know some of the elastic used in german field gaiters contained an early polyeurathane,which was a derivative of perlon.Perlon -T if memory serves me correct).
But i would doubt if much production was done during the war,as you need petroleum to make perlon(as you do with nylon),and im quite sure most most fuels would of gone to the war effort.
It was definately used in the hosiery industry prior to the war. There is also a famous picture of clothes iron being suspended from thread of perlon in another magazine article about the new type of fibre.This was to show its strength.
Perhaps the remaining stocks at the outbreak of war were earmarked war stocks and then used as germany,s material crisis worsened.But to what degree will be a mystery for a while,as the russians took the factories and all the appropriate records,So till they are released,we wont know what extent it was used.
But yeah,im not going to start ignoring melting threads if i find them.
Could well be Perlon but most of time it would be postwar polyester.

[Langemark]

This discussion reminds me an interesting propaganda thread about artificial and synthetic fibers in “der Adler” dated January 12<SUP>th</SUP> 1943 (French version).
It was titled “Ersatz – Stronger than natural fibers”

Mark

[Langemark]

“Close-upon a perlon synthetic thread”<O</O

[Langemark]

"Artificial fibers production line".

[Peter Wiking]

Very interesting.

Cheers
Peter Wiking

[keifer kahn]

Mark,
Great period article.Good insert for this thread.

I suppose the full truth about where it was actually used and the amount in regards to military textiles and equipment will come out one day.

One reason the germans were into synthetic fibre development was the fact that germany had very little domestic cotton production.Pre war germany used to import 80% of their cotton stocks from countries overseas.The other 20% was made up of imports from the hotter areas of russia and southern europe.
The major world suppliers of cotton during ww2 were the USA(southern states),australia,south africa and brazil.The only major cotton supplier germany wasnt at war was brazil,so perhaps we can see why synthetics were developed.The eventual war with russia also ended the supply from there of course.
Rayon(semi synthetic).
It is semi synthetic and not a full synthetic as it is made from natural base such as wood pulp,with adipic acid added.
Rayon was also perfected by the germans from another american patent in the late 1920,s(1928).It was developed to try and counter the expense of importing cotton to germany.It was $5 for bale of cotton in 1928.it was 50c to make the same quantity of rayon.

[TONY Q.W.]

Hello Everybody,

Here is some more info---> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Galler...abrictest.html

I Know, I know litlle off topic, but hey, it doesn't hurt

All the Best,
Tony

[keifer kahn]

Hi Tony,

I think it is a perfect addition to a subject such as this.

[Panzer]

Hi Guys,

the picture shown in frame #8 is in fact also one of the pictures used in an article on Purlon in Signal magazine. This shows the new strong wonder thread.....used in several ways as nylon was...for stockings, threads and even toothbrush bristles. I have always found that the period or pre-polyester synthetic threads (such as Purlon) burn with a vigerous bubbly flame like plastic, but just turn to ash like cotton....rather than retaining a plastic "bulb" on the end....as modern synthetics do. I believe this goes for the cellulose based syntheic fibers also that the Germans used in fabric weaving and the like.

Interesting discussion....although I can say it has been had a few times before so try searching "purlon" and you will find further threads like this.
Cheers! Wade K.

[derspiess63]

Hi Guys,

the picture shown in frame #8 is in fact also one of the pictures used in an article on Purlon in Signal magazine. This shows the new strong wonder thread.....used in several ways as nylon was...for stockings, threads and even toothbrush bristles. I have always found that the period or pre-polyester synthetic threads (such as Purlon) burn with a vigerous bubbly flame like plastic, but just turn to ash like cotton....rather than retaining a plastic "bulb" on the end....as modern synthetics do. I believe this goes for the cellulose based syntheic fibers also that the Germans used in fabric weaving and the like.

Interesting discussion....although I can say it has been had a few times before so try searching "purlon" and you will find further threads like this.
Cheers! Wade K.

Hi Keifer and Mark..G'day wade,
you guys have posted VERY professional replies ,while I tried to be vague and less circumstantial in mine as I possibly could!Wade,you've given a perfect description on how some threads behave when burnt, but I'd suggest,if I may, not to go on further,in order not to educate fakers more than they already are!
I'm sure you'll agree!
Manny