Black Panzer Pioneer Wrap

[kammo man]

NE ,
One must "know" what to look for.
And this cannot just be bought , but learned sometimes the hard way!
Viewing other collections both big and small is VERY helpful.
Examining good and fake items is also important....some times odd things come to light through a slow , cool , timely examination of said item.

Issue V tailor made and what to collect is something that is a debate that could go no for hundreds of pages its self.
Both sides of the coin are pretty , and when buying for a collection one sadly must access if and when one is selling the item some time down the line if the piece has baggage or if its clean and correct.

This hobby is a strange place,

owen

[djpool]

As well as some of us who devote so many hours in its pursuit.

NE ,

This hobby is a strange place,

owen

[90th Light]

Far be it for me to put a "fly in the ointment", a "gladfly" according to member OSS but just one wee challenge or challenges with the thread theory.

Which countries did England expert sewing thread to before the start of WW2 ???

Was German made sewing thread cheaper than English thread and thus imported into more countries in Europe than English thread before WW2 ???

What sort of thread did the Germans capture in France in 1940 ???

When the Germans took stocks of cloth from Italy in 1943/ 44. Did they also take stocks of Italian made thread to make up for shortages from bombing ???.

Which countries in the world imported German industrial sewing machines to make clothes before WW2 ???

Which countries took German industrial & domestic sewing machines as payment for WW1 ???

What type of thread did other countries outside of Germany but part of the Third Reich used in the production of SS uniforms use and where was it made ???

Sorry, many questions and very few answers. In fact, is HBT a German material or is it a material from other parts of the Reich and pressed into production by the Germans during WW2 ?

Chris

[djpool]

Chris you know as well as most members that it was a global economy before and even during the war. During my research on rations I was suprised by the strange nature of business during the middle of a war. In 1943 the Nestle company put a Swiss manager in charge of the German factory that produced products for the Wehrmacht. After the war he refused to cooperate with the allies in order to protect patent information. Also wonder how Nestle was getting coffee beans to Germany to make Nescafe. Never did figure that one out, but it appears money could overcome a lot of obstacles.
In the field of thread don't forget that Perlon stockings were commercially available in Germany in 1938. Perlon wouldn't be classified as a strategic war material till sometime during the war. SoPerlon thread might have been used to sew uniforms between 38 until it was pulled from the commercial market. The same thing occured in the US in the late 30s into the 40s. Nylon thread was available for export before the US went to war with Germany in late 41. I haven't researched the trade records between the US and europe between 1938 till the end of 1941 but I'm sure there is some suprising data.

Chris don't stop asking questions. There is still so much we don't know. JIM

Far be it for me to put a "fly in the ointment", a "gladfly" according to member OSS but just one wee challenge or challenges with the thread theory.

Which countries did England expert sewing thread to before the start of WW2 ???

Was German made sewing thread cheaper than English thread and thus imported into more countries in Europe than English thread before WW2 ???

What sort of thread did the Germans capture in France in 1940 ???

When the Germans took stocks of cloth from Italy in 1943/ 44. Did they also take stocks of Italian made thread to make up for shortages from bombing ???.

Which countries in the world imported German industrial sewing machines to make clothes before WW2 ???

Which countries took German industrial & domestic sewing machines as payment for WW1 ???

What type of thread did other countries outside of Germany but part of the Third Reich used in the production of SS uniforms use and where was it made ???

Sorry, many questions and very few answers. In fact, is HBT a German material or is it a material from other parts of the Reich and pressed into production by the Germans during WW2 ?

Chris

[Langemark]

If I may interfere :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=Perlon

[djpool]

If I may interfere :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=Perlon

I forgot about that thread very interesting reading. Unfortunately it might be to much for the collecting community to accept Perlon/Nylon thread as actually being used in the clothing idustry even though its true! Socks were actually manufactured using Perlon thread to reinforce the heels. Jim

[90th Light]

Chris you know as well as most members that it was a global economy before and even during the war. During my research on rations I was suprised by the strange nature of business during the middle of a war. In 1943 the Nestle company put a Swiss manager in charge of the German factory that produced products for the Wehrmacht. After the war he refused to cooperate with the allies in order to protect patent information. Also wonder how Nestle was getting coffee beans to Germany to make Nescafe. Never did figure that one out, but it appears money could overcome a lot of obstacles.
In the field of thread don't forget that Perlon stockings were commercially available in Germany in 1938. Perlon wouldn't be classified as a strategic war material till sometime during the war. SoPerlon thread might have been used to sew uniforms between 38 until it was pulled from the commercial market. The same thing occured in the US in the late 30s into the 40s. Nylon thread was available for export before the US went to war with Germany in late 41. I haven't researched the trade records between the US and europe between 1938 till the end of 1941 but I'm sure there is some suprising data.

Chris don't stop asking questions. There is still so much we don't know. JIM

Global and multi-national even before WW1 Jim,

A pair of vet brought back binoculars that I have in my possession marked "Carl Zeiss, London, 1915" being real proof. Talking about Carl Zeiss London, the one that always saddens me is the deal that the Germans and English were negotiating in 1915 to trade German made sniper scopes for British made rubber tyres.

As you say, " it appears money could overcome a lot of obstacles. " & business is always business regards of the times they live,

Chris

[90th Light]

The culprit making the panzer wraps has been identified.

Veteran brought back and found in the pocket of an SS panzer wrap with silver-grey HBT lining, at the time

Chris

[John Pic]

I do not depend on anyones opinions over the years the opinions of others got me into trouble in this hobby. I studied many many various 4 pocket uniforms..but not Panzer wraps and thus I do not buy them. I saw some that were for sale years ago at the Bellflower show by Monte Cheney...he was also a skilled tailor so what I was looking at I will never know but as Mr. Singer says, I entertained doubts. I attended those shows for years and listened to the opinions of many collectors there about tunics that people would bring in and learned that not even the most advanced there could really tell for certain what they were looking at most of the time unless it was textbook and obviously old.

Most of them depended of Steve Wolfe for advice...but I later learned even he was not able all the time to know what was going on..he even had a couple guys who hung out and helped out in his shop who were expert at tailoring but I do not think he was aware of what they were doing..I know because I bought my first post war put together SS tunic from one of them and only learned of its origins because I accidently ran into the original seller of the jacket.

So asking other opinions no matter how good a person is at this will not always lead to the truth...I like what I see when I see Mike Davis' website or Glenn McInnes collection so Im sure they have vast experience in handling garments..I have not seen Mr. Singer's or Richard P.s nor have I met them and nothing against them but I would have to know more to trust an opinion fully..that said I respect them knowing that both are long time collectors.

My advice if you want to collect uniforms is study undoubtably original ones you will learn to see the subtle differences in how they are tailored compaired to the new fakes showing up..if you cant tell find someone who owns unquestionable tunics and spend nearly a lifetime looking at them in hand..you will never get perfect..we have all been fooled even these guys despite the vast knowledge.

Thats my rant and for my money you waste time trying to argue these topics with two schools of thought existing...For the record I do not like the tunic starting this thread the piping looks wrong to me but thats all I can say about it.

[kammo man]

Sage words John.


owen

[Peter v L]

When you are done ranting page up and down, the owner of the Panzer pioneer wrapper wish to start a new thread discussing the wrapper only and to first post good quality photos and any extra photos wanted.

He also want to present it´s provenience and where it originates from, it have lived most of it´s life in USA though and of the three latest owners two are well known knowledgable US panzer collectors, both having posted in this thread.

It would be good if we for once could keep the focus at a item instead of having a pissing game and name calling.

So let us know when you are done and he will start a new thread and maybe the item itself can be discussed in a objective way where the pros and cons can give their opinion about why this wrapper would be original or not original.

It is probably not possible but maybe we can try anyhow.

Peter v L

[Richard P]

When you are done ranting page up and down, the owner of the Panzer pioneer wrapper wish to start a new thread discussing the wrapper only and to first post good quality photos and any extra photos wanted.

He also want to present it´s provenience and where it originates from, it have lived most of it´s life in USA though and of the three latest owners two are well known knowledgable US panzer collectors, both having posted in this thread.

It would be good if we for once could keep the focus at a item instead of having a pissing game and name calling.

So let us know when you are done and he will start a new thread and maybe the item itself can be discussed in a objective way where the pros and cons can give their opinion about why this wrapper would be original or not original.

It is probably not possible but maybe we can try anyhow.

Peter v L

Peter,

I know the linage of this wrap, but chose to keep it to myself. Every time I post I bring out the loons...so I thought it best not to say another word. I will try and stay out of it, so it might get a semi-fair shake. I won't hold my breath.

Don't worry...no one will say much since there is a new class of super fake wraps just waiting to be made...ha ha ha.

I for one look forward to the thread, and can't wait to see what some of the new wrap gurus have to say.

Richard

[B. N. Singer]

Peter,

I know the linage of this wrap, but chose to keep it to myself. Every time I post I bring out the loons...so I thought it best not to say another word. I will try and stay out of it, so it might get a semi-fair shake. I won't hold my breath.

Don't worry...no one will say much since there is a new class of super fake wraps just waiting to be made...ha ha ha.

I for one look forward to the thread, and can't wait to see what some of the new wrap gurus have to say.

Richard

B. N. Singer

[Richard P]

B. N. Singer

I rest my case.

Richard

[MLH13]

I've read this ongoing thread with much interest. Not because I know anything about uniform wraps, but because of the BS being spread around here. Some of you folk would make John Deere proud.

For whatever reason, Richard was made out to be the whipping boy and I find this quite laughable. If you truly know RichardP, you know there's no arguing his credentials. JMO.

Mark