Black Panzer Pioneer Wrap

[besslein]

Hello OSS,

the assumptions that you have made in your statement quoted above are not correct but I will leave it at that. Except to say, they definitely made some SS M43 caps with silver-grey HBT linings (and some other shades of HBT) before May 1945. Therefore why would it be so difficult for the Germans to line an SS panzer wrap made before May 1945 also with silver-grey HBT lining ?

Chris

a hbt lining WSS wrapper must be ultra mega rare,never seen one or any from my collectors friends here,trust me we have found and seen a lot
ther first hbt lining wrap that i have seen was a fake offered by regimentals,and this one was even with russian movie company stamps,good try ,but a fake.

[90th Light]

a hbt lining WSS wrapper must be ultra mega rare,never seen one or any from my collectors friends here,trust me we have found and seen a lot
ther first hbt lining wrap that i have seen was a fake offered by regimentals,and this one was even with russian movie company stamps,good try ,but a fake.

Hello besslein,

yes I know that an HBT lining in an SS panzer wrap is a big issue for panzer wrap collectors and others. The question that I have put to this forum however, is a reasonable one;

"you can have an SS M43 cap made before May 1945 with an HBT lining, you can have an SS M43 tunic made before May 1945 with an HBT lining so why can you not have an SS panzer wrap made before May 1945 with an HBT lining ??? "

Chris

[OSS]

they definitely made some SS M43 caps with silver-grey HBT linings (and some other shades of HBT) before May 1945. Therefore why would it be so difficult for the Germans to line an SS panzer wrap made before May 1945 also with silver-grey HBT lining ?

Chris

Since the "Dachau" (black SS Pz. M-43s) caps, which most of us are familiar with and are well documented, are lined with silver-gray HBT, I will concede that some SS m-43 caps were made with silver gray linings. However to then speculate that therefore it is likely that Black wrappers were lined with the same material is perhaps a disservice to fellow collectors. It is almost like saying that since Heer tropical caps are lined in red material therefore they must have made Heer tropical tunics with facings in red material.

I honestly enjoyed your story and I am sure incidents like that occurred at war's end that resulted in caches of German war material which still surface today. I only wish you hadn't made the evidentiary stretch at the end of it that is pure speculation, unfounded and misleading.

[90th Light]

Since the "Dachau" (black SS Pz. M-43s) caps, which most of us are familiar with and are well documented, are lined with silver-gray HBT, I will concede that some SS m-43 caps were made with silver gray linings. However to then speculate that therefore it is likely that Black wrappers were lined with the same material is perhaps a disservice to fellow collectors. It is almost like saying that since Heer tropical caps are lined in red material therefore they must have made Heer tropical tunics with facings in red material.

I honestly enjoyed your story and I am sure incidents like that occurred at war's end that resulted in caches of German war material which still surface today. I only wish you hadn't made the evidentiary stretch at the end of it that is pure speculation, unfounded and misleading.

Hello again OSS,

your comparison with the red lining in a Heer tropical cap is not relevant to my question. The red lining was put into Heer tropical caps because of research at universities in Germany before WW2. Certain professors in science/ textiles believed that red was the most appropriate colour for dispersing heat from the top of one's head in a tropical climate. They were not so concerned about trying to disperse heat from all over the body by lining the jackets in red. Heat dispersion from the head however was seen as an advantage at the time.

I can not explain why the LW did not buy into red tropical cap linings but instead used a sandy colour of lining in their tropical caps which can also be found in many of their tropical jackets. Maybe Goring thought red linings dispersing heat from the brain was nothing but a lot of rubbish, who knows.

The KM on the other hand seem to use green and grey in their tropical caps and this can sometimes also be found also in their tropical jackets. Although when it came to tropical jackets, the KM certianly favoured white/ cream as the colour of choice. (Why white, more university research ?)

The SS seem to have followed the LW model and used sand colored lining in both their tropical caps and tropical jackets.

My "evidentiary sketch at the end" as you call it, is "speculation", I agree but it is not "unfounded". Based on the very point that you yourself make in a reverse way. The SS used the same type of lining in their combat jackets as they used in their combat caps. The SS "Dachau caps are lined with HBT and so are some of the SS "M43 tunics". The SS billed tropical caps are lined with sandy coloured material and so are many of the SS tropical jackets.

I thus put to you sir, that if an SS black panzer M43 cap found at Augustdorf in 1945 has a silver-grey HBT lining then why can an SS black panzer wrap also found at Augustdorf in 1945 not have a silver grey HBT lining ???

This is in no way, a statement on my part designed to "mislead" anyone . This is an up-front and honest question, to all and sundry reading this thread on this forum,

Sincerely, Chris

[B. N. Singer]

Hello ... Therefore why would it be so difficult for the Germans to line an SS panzer wrap made before May 1945 also with silver-grey HBT lining ?

Chris

Have you EVER held an Original to know what the Hell your talking about Back to square one with you.

And just to show YOU (and EVERYONE else) that I have no malice against you, I’ll toss you this bone towards your supposition, I have seen Original SS AG wraparounds with grey/silver HBT lining material.

Now go chase your tail till you drop.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

From my minor collecting experience I've learned that the truth can change as more research comes to light. Since I have no experience with SS wraps, I can't comment on the use of silver grey lining in SS black wraps. However I have seen a lot of odd lining and finishing materials used on Army tunics. However Chris can surely put forth that theory.


Jim

[90th Light]

Have you EVER held an Original to know what the Hell your talking about Back to square one with you.

And just to show YOU (and EVERYONE else) that I have no malice against you, I’ll toss you this bone towards your supposition, I have seen Original SS AG wraparounds with grey/silver HBT lining material.

Now go chase your tail till you drop.

B. N. Singer

Byron,

I believe that in the child's story, the tiger chased his tail until he turned into butter. While if I am going to solidfy as a result of this then it is going to because I have posed a reasonable question to which I now, hopefully seek an answer or at the very least some sort of explaination;

"If the Germans clearly used silver-grey HBT in the production of some of their black SS panzer M43 caps made before May 1945 then surely they would also have used silver-grey HBT in the production of some of their black SS panzer wraps ??? "

By your own admission, they used silver-grey HBT in the some of SS field grey wraps so what is so wrong with it being used before May 1945 in some of the black SS wraps ?

I wish you well, leave the question with you and finish here by quoting what "phil" put forward in post number 89


(""For collectors who are unsure about an area that they want to venture I would suggest that they be very careful and circumspect in relying on the advice or opinion of any one person or "clique" regardless of how great their reputation is. My advice to them would be to expect a reason or explanation as to why something is bad (or good) and if you can not get from someone who is supposed to know then ignore them."")

Regards, Chris

[John Pic]

"By your own admission, they used silver-grey HBT in the some of SS field grey wraps so what is so wrong with it being used before May 1945 in some of the black SS wraps ? "


Nothing is wrong with that theory...what is wrong is the idea that any one person has all the knowledge...proof and material are always good though.

[OSS]

Hello again OSS,


I thus put to you sir, that if an SS black panzer M43 cap found at Augustdorf in 1945 has a silver-grey HBT lining then why can an SS black panzer wrap also found at Augustdorf in 1945 not have a silver grey HBT lining ???



Sincerely, Chris

I suppose it may be entertaining to imagine what may or may not have been possible, however most collectors are here, not to be entertained, but to hopefully find some useful information. While it is certainly possible there were silver-gray HBT lined black SS wraps (I have never seen one), the problem is that most of the fakes are lined with it. If you have access to a genuine one, I would love to see it.

Your "gadfly" approach is sometimes amusing, only I often wish you were more familiar with the subject matter.

[Richard P]

Your "gadfly" approach is sometimes amusing, only I often wish you were more familiar with the subject matter.

Now that's entertaining!

I felt the same way about you through all 3 Collectors Guild Wrap Threads.

Richard

[OSS]

That brings us back to the tunic which started this thread; like the now famous HG Pz. wrap, you (Richard P.) seem to have enthusiastically endorsed both examples as genuine. The only problem I see here is that they are both fakes from the ground up IMO. The piped Panzer Artillerie wrap you offered in support of your views, also fake (IMO). Tell me why I should be interested in your assessments?

[Richard P]

That brings us back to the tunic which started this thread; like the now famous HG Pz. wrap, you (Richard P.) seem to have enthusiastically endorsed both examples as genuine. The only problem I see here is that they are both fakes from the ground up IMO.

What that brings us back to, you (Ramsey S.) is that there are those that seek to distract, attack, decoy, bait, and basically follow the same tactics as the current administration in office. Anything to throw everyone off the facts when they are presented.

Don't forget...the opinion poll started by JacquesF showed 3 to 1 in support of my conclusions...not yours. Why would I enter in to a "no win" situation again with Willi's threat hanging over my head?

Richard

[Mike Davis]

....there are those that seek to distract, attack, decoy, bait....

What?

There are different ways to assess originality. I think I know where OSS stands.

[OSS]

Don't forget...the opinion poll started by JacquesF showed 3 to 1 in support of my conclusions...not yours. Why would I enter in to a "no win" situation again with Willi's threat hanging over my head?

Richard

Mark Twain said "There are three types of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics".
(re: poll results)

Anyway, I think Willi terminated the last thread not because of any views put forth by either side but because of the rancor caused by the deadlocked debate. I think a lot of the paranoia about cliques and favoritism is imagined.

[kammo man]

I have seen uniforms ............like black panzer clothing converted ...to make WORK clothing ........with ruler pockets and loops for hammers.

Vintage sewing is VERY different from 70s sewing ....


owen