Black Panzer Pioneer Wrap

[phild]

Indeed…; reference post #9 and others that seem to “praise” the example.

B. N. Singer

I understand, but Richard P is liking some of the characteristics that he sees in the photos although he wants to examine it in person to make a conclusion. Most of what he is saying is about piped PZ Pi wraps in general not an endorsement of this one....it seems to me. The other favorable comments were toward this being a striking looking and rare wrap, but I do not think that anyone would give this a thumbs up without seeing it person.

There were several concerns that I have about it, but photo 4 showed me about 3 or 4 things that I did not feel met my criteria for a period wrap and tabs.

The horse has been beaten a thousand times on this uniform forum alone, but this is a difficult science or art in that there are many variations (in EVERY detail) between orginals and also between the fakes.....so the baseline is shakey....but I believe existant.

[STUG III]

Pz.Wrapper

I've sat back and watched this thread 'unravel' in direction that has nothing to do about the wrapper in question to, question those that comment about the wrapper. It's amazing that anyone can walk away with any kind of objective opinions about any of the Relics posted.
This is what I have learned: Yes there are people on this Forum that do 'sway' the verdict on certain Relics. They either truly believe what they see is authentic, fake, or they don't know. The latter is what 'hand' they can not tip, it would be a chink in the armor of there knowledge. Believe me 'they' know who they are. We, as Association Members, Trust the word of people that 9/10's of us have never met make a call on items, some valuing thousands of Dollars, GBP, and EUROs via the social web net. Most of us have never seen there collections let alone them. Why have they been appointed as 'Experts'? Do you know? I don't. Just think about that point alone.
I have met a few of the Panzer Community people. Known a few for 20 or 30 years, seen there collections, been to there houses, and speak to them on a weekly basis. I give great pause to those I don't know, have not shook there hands and looked into there eyes.
The Collectors which I speak of, I trust there judgment on these wrappers 'they' know who they are. The 'johnny come lately' fabric/relic experts, well we have enough CO2.
Let's get back to the Wrapper please. Thank you for your time.

[MLH13]

It is difficult to breach the citadels of knowledge in this hobby. The books are rife with fakes. The level of fakery is astounding. And knowledge is not freely shared.

The other issue is some older collectors feel it is a God given right to bury their mistakes into newer collectors. A God given right.

Amen, Brother.

[phild]

Originally Posted by Naval Enigma
"It is difficult to breach the citadels of knowledge in this hobby. The books are rife with fakes. The level of fakery is astounding. And knowledge is not freely shared."

If you consider the recent thread on the HG wraps for instance, I don't see how anyone could believe that there were any secrets or knowledge held back and not stated in that thread as to what criteria an original wrap must meet, how to evaluate one or what characteristics are to be found in fakes that have been generated from several dozen sources since the mid-70s or so.

That thread and many others on wraps and tunic analysis have ended up dozens of pages long and both pro camp and con camp of the item(s) in question have offered every point that they know or in some cases just suspect on the subject. A lot of the smartest collectors in every field and I really believe all of them if they are honest have been fooled by a number of items....there is no citadel of knowledge only informed and experienced opinions that have been (hopefully) tested. When concerns are pointed out about characteristics of and item...or features that may be unlikely on a fake the buyer must weigh those and make up their own mind.

I do not believe that there is any such thing as hidden knowledge in this hobby, unless it relates to knowledge or the origin of a specific fake...i.e. the knowledge holder was there when it was made up or knew someone who was.

We all should understand that as the fakes get better the baseline for understanding and validating the original item being targeted moves....that fact makes the hobby difficult and uniforms may be the toughest area of all.

[Naval Enigma]

If you consider the recent thread on the HG wraps for instance, I don't see how anyone could believe that there were any secrets or knowledge held back and not stated in that thread as to what criteria an original wrap must meet, how to evaluate one or what characteristics are to be found in fakes that have been generated from several dozen sources since the mid-70s or so.

That thread and many others on wraps and tunic analysis have ended up dozens of pages long and both pro camp and con camp of the item(s) in question have offered every point that they know or in some cases just suspect on the subject. A lot of the smartest collectors in every field and I really believe all of them if they are honest have been fooled by a number of items....there is no citadel of knowledge only informed and experienced opinions that have been (hopefully) tested. When concerns are pointed out about characteristics of and item...or features that may be unlikely on a fake the buyer must weigh those and make up their own mind.

I do not believe that there is any such thing as hidden knowledge in this hobby, unless it relates to knowledge or the origin of a specific fake...i.e. the knowledge holder was there when it was made up or knew someone who was.

We all should understand that as the fakes get better the baseline for understanding and validating the original item being targeted moves....that fact makes the hobby difficult and uniforms may be the toughest area of all.

I can't find any fault with what you have said. I have read the HG threads, and other wrap threads many times. I sometimes come away with the impression there is simply no objective truth to some items.

It is a hard thing to admit when one is out of his depth, as I am with cloth. It is truly a shame collecting can be so adversarial. Nothing worth doing is without effort, like learning this material. But let's just say the syllabus seems flawed.

[Ohlau]

Most of us have never seen there collections let alone them. Why have they been appointed as 'Experts'? Do you know? I don't. Just think about that point alone.

Very brave words here.... after all threads like about "HG" wraps...

"I could entertain a doubts"

Indeed…; reference post #9 and others that seem to “praise” the example.

B. N. Singer

So war as always

[phild]

I can't find any fault with what you have said. I have read the HG threads, and other wrap threads many times. I sometimes come away with the impression there is simply no objective truth to some items.

It is a hard thing to admit when one is out of his depth, as I am with cloth. It is truly a shame collecting can be so adversarial. Nothing worth doing is without effort, like learning this material. But let's just say the syllabus seems flawed.

You probably know more about uniforms than you are giving yourself credit for. You for sure seem to be asking the right questions and that is more than many long term collectors do that I have been around.

I will tell you in my most sincere and honest opinon that evaluating any uniform involves both objective and subjective conclusions. Depending on the complication of the item involved (an issue M43 feldbluse is much easier that a private made GD Generals black wrap with 5 tank destruction badges and two cufftitiles (just a joke here)! What you and all of us are striving for is to make the criteria between orignal and post 45 most all objective....that is about where Knights Crosses are today thanks to excellent data collection, excellent publication(s), excellent period documentation about the few autorized makers, the nature of die struck medals and badges in general and forums like this one. I don't think that this same thing will happen with uniforms as the possible baseline of wide variations between orignals (and fakes) is huge and will present a challange 1000X more difficult than with RKs.

Everyone agrees that there is no substitute for handling both orignal and fake examples of whatever your interest are and having someone point out the whys as you are doing it. Most important and difficult is that the fakes and the orignals are correctly identified as this is happening!!

I can say that I feel pretty confident in my ability to tell the difference between original and post war fake(posers) CONTRACT Heer PZ wraps and trousers, more so those dateing mid war and earlier. That is NOT to say that I can always tell in every case if a piece of insignia is 100% pre-45 attached or not.....to include collar piping in some cases.....but I think that I can get close in that area and if anyone tells you that they can be 100% sure in every case I would suggest that you keep your distance from them.

I would say that if you can develop a good knowledge on the basic issue non exoctic (unlike the subject of this thread!!) candidates that you will be able to carry that experince to the more difficult items in time as well as anyone else.

[jacquesf]

Phil, I must congratulate you on you well reasoned approach to collecting. I found your input most valuable and instructive. Jacques

[kammo man]

The cloth and thread cannot lie.

If you know that .......the rest is easy.

owen

[phild]

The cloth and thread cannot lie.

If you know that .......the rest is easy.

owen

Owen, That is only true if the fake is not made of period cloth and thread and plenty of them are at least in feldgrau. It is good for us that very few black PZ wraps and trousers are, I least that is what I believe. I personally have never seen a fake PZ wrap or trousers that I have reconized as such that was made from what I know was period black material.

My limitation is that I can not be sure of every type of exact weave variation that may have been used in pre-may 45 pz wraps....there was for sure several different types of black fabric including one worsted wool variety and few different wollens wool weave types and qualities used in period contract wraps. I could hardly venture a stab at custom made PZ uniforms, which seem to have been acquired very much in the minority for officer use in black pz uniforms unlike feldgrau service uniforms.

I do agree with you that the fabric and thread is where it starts and if they don't pass evaluation there is no need to look any further unless you can salvage some orginal insignia!

[djpool]

Having spent most of my military career in Germany I know that lots of wartime thread and numerous bolts of cloth were continually showing up. Also remember that large numbers of uniforms were converted to civilian wear after the war. Some of these uniforms could be converted back to their wartime condition, others not but they did provide good cloth. Also remember that original field grey wraps were died black. In the 70s Panzer wraps were the rage, the field grey ones weren't as desirable. I also recall handling several field grey wraps which were retailored great coats! Jim

Owen, That is only true if the fake is not made of period cloth and thread and plenty of them are at least in feldgrau. It is good for us that very few black PZ wraps and trousers are, I least that is what I believe. I personally have never seen a fake PZ wrap or trousers that I have reconized as such that was made from what I know was period black material.

My limitation is that I can not be sure of every type of exact weave variation that may have been used in pre-may 45 pz wraps....there was for sure several different types of black fabric including one worsted wool variety and few different wollens wool weave types and qualities used in period contract wraps. I could hardly venture a stab at custom made PZ uniforms, which seem to have been acquired very much in the minority for officer use in black pz uniforms unlike feldgrau service uniforms.

I do agree with you that the fabric and thread is where it starts and if they don't pass evaluation there is no need to look any further unless you can salvage some orginal insignia!

[kammo man]

Agreed Phild 100% .

Have a look at the wrap Georgio just got , the Army with SS mix.
The wrap is 100% good.
The SS patches 100% good.
The sewing thread and style if sewing is 100% good.
It has been together 70 odd years.
Recent sewing does not look like this nor could it.

After examining countless examples of original garments one knows in a heart beat if something is right OR wrong.

Restored stands out from vintage every time, repo made to fool also , even if high quality...just a different beast.

Bottom line , know what is old and vintage , the rest will quickly fall into place .

owen

[90th Light]

Having spent most of my military career in Germany I know that lots of wartime thread and numerous bolts of cloth were continually showing up. Also remember that large numbers of uniforms were converted to civilian wear after the war. Some of these uniforms could be converted back to their wartime condition, others not but they did provide good cloth. Also remember that original field grey wraps were died black. In the 70s Panzer wraps were the rage, the field grey ones weren't as desirable. I also recall handling several field grey wraps which were retailored great coats! Jim

Good point Jim, and as you already know, not all of it has been done to fool the collectors. Sometimes it was just the reality of survival in Germany after May 1945.

Below is a good read of what one collector observed to back up what you are saying. The interesting thing is that when some of the big name dealers have sold off items from such finds then they are accused of having a clothing factory under their shop turning it out. While in a minority of cases this might be true, the reality is that many big name dealers simply have the funds to buy off an ongoing group of pickers who come across hordes like this;


"EDITED AND ENLARGED VERSION:
My friend was in Bielefeld and saw some of the horde of W-SS material taken from a farmhouse near Augustdorf in late 2001. This led from the discovery by a German collector of a store of old W-SS uniforms and field gear in a farm house that had been removed from the nearby W-SS barracks at Augustdorf in early April 1945 when the base was evacuated by the W-SS as the Americans advanced. Augustdorf was the base on the northern edge of the Sennelager training area used by the W-SS to train crews of the heavy (Tiger) tank battalions.

Among the large amount of W-SS Panzer uniforms uncovered in early 2001 were at least three black W-SS Panzer M43 caps, all with single button flaps and a separate eagle and skull insignia attached to the front of the cap above the single composite retaining button. These three caps had linings of steel blue-grey herring bone twill material. My friend remembers the caps very well. When he saw the pile of W-SS Panzer material two of the three black M43 caps had been sold. He could have bought the last one but dithered because he was short of money at the time. He has regretted that decision since.

For those who may not have heard of this amazing discovery the material had belonged to the old farmer who died in 2000. Relatives who came to clear out the farm found one room with an old industrial sewing machine and piles of clothing- some 50 intact W-SS overcoats, more overcoats that had been shortened and converted to single button front, black wrappers that had been cut down and re-worked into a single button front, dyed a variety of browns and greens, other tunics cut up and in various stages of civilian conversion, boxes of scraps of large and small pieces of uniform cloth, and luckily for collectors there were still a number of uniform items that had not suffered from the old farmer's scissors. Camouflage items, like smocks, had survived presumably because there was not the same ready market for converted camouflages clothing as there was for dyed and re-worked overcoats and wrappers and tunics.

The German collectors who saw the room assumed that production in the farm house had stopped at some time after the war when Germans were no longer buying converted military clothing. But the point of this story is simply that among this material taken from the clothing store of the W-SS barracks at Ausgustdorf there were black M43 caps with a blue-grey HBT lining. This amazing story from Augustdorf is one of the great finds of "treasure" in Germany in recent years.

The big German dealers, fists full of DM, were all on the scene with a day of word of the discovery leaking out. There was some fast and furious bidding by the dealers to get their hands on the treasure trove. Among this large amount of W-SS uniforms were camouflage items like smocks and panzer wrappers, plane tree helmet covers, though only in very small numbers, two or three of each. There were apparently none of the late war pea pattern uniform combinations. Most of the top end items, like still intact black wrappers with the insignia still attached (some of the uniforms had their arm eagles and collar patches removed) were sold immediately to advanced German collectors without ever appearing on a dealer's list.

How did this material end up in a farm house? There were two schools of thought among the German collectors and dealers who saw it. One possibility is that the W-SS deposited the material there themselves before evacuating the base, to protect and preserve it by concealing it in the farm house. This is a distinct possibility, given that the material included a few pieces of field gear, e.g. bread bags, gasmasks and canisters, ammunition pouches, water bottles, belts and buckles, boots even. The other possible explanation would have to be that the farmer himself took his horse and cart to the barracks and made a number of trips between the barracks and his farm, which was only about 2km from the base. Residents living in there in 1945 reported the base had been looted, by local villagers and farmers, in the hours between the time the W-SS left the barracks and when the Americans arrived, about one day later. Even though there were American combat units close by they did not actually enter the base for over 12 hours after the WSS had left. In this time people were seen walking through the barracks carrying away anything they felt was useful. Most local people came looking for food, but things like towels and kitchen utensils, stationery from the office, small items of furniture were removed too. It would have been possible for a farmer with foresight of the likely shortage of clothing in a postwar Germany to have come in and loaded up his cart with uniforms. It is however a moot point as to why he would have also taken an assortment of basic field gear.

From the evidence of production converting the uniforms for civilian use over a period, and assuming much had been sold by the farmer, there must have been a considerable amount of uniform left in the farm house in late March 1945. One can only speculate what may have been stored in the farm house in
late-March-early April 1945 in total.

END"


I wonder how many of the SS panzer wraps found from Augustdorf had "steel-grey HBT" linings ???

Chris

[OSS]

I wonder how many of the SS panzer wraps found from Augustdorf had "steel-grey HBT" linings ???

Chris

So basically, you heard a story about a collector (whom you never met) who distinctly remembered a detail about an item of headgear (that you never saw) and therefore it stands to reason that different articles of clothing which reportedly turned up in the same story might possibly be lined in the same material. Anyway, I found the story entertaining.

[90th Light]

So basically, you heard a story about a collector (whom you never met) who distinctly remembered a detail about an item of headgear (that you never saw) and therefore it stands to reason that different articles of clothing which reportedly turned up in the same story might possibly be lined in the same material. Anyway, I found the story entertaining.

Hello OSS,

the assumptions that you have made in your statement quoted above are not correct but I will leave it at that. Except to say, they definitely made some SS M43 caps with silver-grey HBT linings (and some other shades of HBT) before May 1945. Therefore why would it be so difficult for the Germans to line an SS panzer wrap made before May 1945 also with silver-grey HBT lining ?

Chris