Black Panzer Pioneer Wrap

[Leroy]

I'm the person who mentioned 'cliques' earlier and I'm also the person who put into 'bold' typeface part of what Jacques said (as I did not know what he meant by it - did he mean he never got repaid for the bad cap, or that he never pursued it, or what?). I'm just curious, as I don't collect M-43's.

[Willi Z.]

well, i can only offer my wiew about the main point : the wonderfull but dangerous "free knowledge's sharing and offering" of the net.
you can have very good "friends" on the net, mutual and altruistic help too with nice people you will never met.
and that's where i want to come : it will NEVER replace the individual direct contact with old "Chibanis", neither the hand scrutinization of items offered by a teacher who is happy to share with you, young "Padawan", his knowledge and experience because you deserve his trust and that is the proper way to learn.
this is the basis onto wich you build your own criterais and establish your opinion.
and this cannot be found in books, neither with the net.

after, we all agree to disagree, everyone is free to act as he wishes.
no need useless personnal controversies there.

that is the main lesson i try to apply : always keep an open mind and listen what other collectors say/write, but if you can't judge the originality of an item by yourself, without help to make your decision, then you don't realy deserve it because you didn't do what should be done before to get it safely.
this is your responsability, whatever the seller do or other collector's opinions.
if you are unsure, don't get it.
if you get it, then assume it.

so about sharing details on public forums, yes untill a certain point, but IMHO some should be kept

there is no "right to know", or "happy few circles" in collecting, only what you are ready to do or not with your hobby.

sorry if i bored you with this digression.
derka

Derka, I agree with your very wise and logical words.

[msteve21]

M43

I'm the person who mentioned 'cliques' earlier and I'm also the person who put into 'bold' typeface part of what Jacques said (as I did not know what he meant by it - did he mean he never got repaid for the bad cap, or that he never pursued it, or what?). I'm just curious, as I don't collect M-43's.

He may be referring to the infamous Wade Kraftcheck who wrote books on German Panzer and Army uniforms. A large % of these uniforms helmets and caps were fakes or dodged up to increase their value.

After publishing the books (some of which were co authored with a Swiss Dealer) he sold of his collection, cashing in on the reputation he had built from writing the books.

Wade was not known to give refunds….search his user name “panzer” to read some interesting treads about his activities.

[90th Light]

What worries me with this thread is when we get it wrong and we accuse and judge someone one for selling a fake when they are not. We become nothing more than a lynch mob in one of those old cowboy movies.

To show you what I mean, take recently a thread which was on this forum at the start of the year concerning Herbert Elsner's panzer M43 cap which Peter Von Lukacs sold with reapplied trap.

The whole focus of the thread was how the cap was a fake. Yet any body who knows these named panzer wrap groupings knows that the cap was amongst the items purchased from Herbert Elsners family. On this forum however, the whole focus became that of "another fake found out" and every armchair detective thought they had solved the case.

How can we declared an original panzer M43 cap worn by Herbert Elsner a fake on this forum, when we are the ones who are suppose to know good from bad ???

Below is what one very advanced collector of panzer shared with me about the H. Elsner M43 cap

(""I have some knowledge of the Elsner items...and own several of them and some original wartime photos of him (wearing my items) from when Peter acquired his items. The Elsner zippered black wrap had been with Peter for perhaps 5 years after Wade K got out of collecting until he sold it recently to another advanced collector. Other items of his such as his Wehrpass for example are now in another advanced European collection.

Peter and/or Wade visited him and took pictures of the whole grouping together as I recall. The grouping was too expensive for Wade so he and Peter split it...I got a good piece of it and some choice photos (he's wearing an M43!)...and would have enjoyed later on owning the tailored wrap (pictured in Wade's last book), but last year when Peter sold it the price was way above what I could pay. I do believe the Elsner M43 discussed on WAF is Herbert Elsner's - just not sure if it was his wartime cap. Interestingly some of the awards had the same "HE" scratched onto the reverse and the zippered wrap had the "HE" stitched into the inside. Easy things to do, but what an entirely elaborate hoax this would be if not all original Elsner items. I think it was a Spainish collector who acquired the letter shown on the thread as he later owned the cap. He collects named items and is quite good at tracking down these kinds of relatives. Not 100% provenence - for what do old ladies know? - but not bad evidence either. """)



I will add this to the panzer M43 thread but I repeat my point "are we getting it right" when we accuse people of selling fakes because to get it wrong is a worse crime.

I will thank you for your time, if you read this gentlemen and I will now leave the panzer experts to the finer points of the wraps,

Chris

p.s. just reading post 78 below, Wade had some top notch stuff as well as bad. You just had to know what you were doing. The battle for the good stuff esp. the named wraps was like a feeding frenzy when he sold up. Also I do not think Peter is Swiss. We do need to double check what we are stating about people here.

[Leroy]

I found what Jacques was apparently talking about: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=M-43&page=22

An interesting discussion....

[John Pic]

I agree it can go both ways...sometime's those with a vast amount of experience and knowledge get it wrong...and it is obvious that pride keeps them from admitting that.

and all too often people with no experience or knowledge make comments regarding authenticity that they really have no business making..often just because their favorite expert took the lead. Many times especially in the SS forum they jump the gun.

[jacquesf]

Willi ,
Your point about fakes being pushed into other collectors with little knowledge but plenty of money is very true and close to the bone it hurts.
If a collector who knowingly sells this item should then be regarded as a bad egg really hits home indeed .

owen

Owen here is another classic example of what you are reffering to. The links in that thread makes for good reading as well. http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=160889&page=2 . These two as well, good reading for anyone in this hobby. http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=161837 and http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=162088 Jacques

[msteve21]

p.s. just reading post 78 below, Wade had some top notch stuff as well as bad. You just had to know what you were doing. The battle for the good stuff esp. the named wraps was like a feeding frenzy when he sold up. Also I do not think Peter is Swiss. We do need to double check what we are stating about people here.

You’re correct Peter is not Swiss, he’s from Sweden.

As to Wade, I’m referring that he capitalise on his reputation an “Expert” to sell off fakes, which by far out numbered the original items in his collection. Unfortunately due to the high prices some TR items now command the hobby becomes a breeding ground for such people.

To focus back on what this thread is about, a great place to start learning is

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=499846

learn to use the search button, and possible save you a few dollars
Cheers Mark

[kammo man]

Thanks J ......
there goes my morning !!!!
o

[echoe]

knowledge

charity with knowledge has always been and will always be a scarce commodity when it comes to militaria collecting

you've got to be able to think for yourself. frankly, prices have gotten so high that mistakes can now be ruinous.

btw - i'm not presenting any of this as news. just a comment

tc

[rameses]

this is a great thread to learn.
in this Hooby you gonna sleep always learning something new.
I be enjoying talks colecctores
xisco

[Willi Z.]

charity with knowledge has always been and will always be a scarce commodity when it comes to militaria collecting

you've got to be able to think for yourself. frankly, prices have gotten so high that mistakes can now be ruinous.

btw - i'm not presenting any of this as news. just a comment

tc

Very wise advice.

[kammo man]

J ,
Those threads are harsh, and they open up many different and very long points that I believe have been covered at length.

There were a few threads missing that should be required reading..........
That further blow the lid on the goings on of the Panzer community's players who push bad collectible's on to unsuspecting individuals......mostly with mis-information and other spinning of facts - opinion -and theory.

A weird little world indeed .


owen

[phild]

I have not figured out the where's and why's of this thread yet. I realize that I am slow on the uptake but I'm not seeing the point of any of this back and forth.

As best as I can read no one said that the subject wrap was 100 original and everyone was judging from the photos. For the record I had/have some real doubts about the wrap itself from when I saw it. I can not say 100% that the wrap itself if fake nor would I even guess at the piping...but this wrap show a couple of signs that too me would not encourage me that it is real.

I take it that many others also have problems with it based on the comments. I would love to know just one of the show stopper signs that someone else has picked up on?

If there are no show stoppers from the photos then everything is just a hunch or suspicion that it is fake based on some some red flags. Correct?

As for cliques in the hobby, sure there are and have been since I have been collecting.....nothing wrong with it for me. Everyone has to judge how they treat people. I've found that it usually comes back around one way or the other.

For collectors who are unsure about an area that they want to venture I would suggest that they be very careful and circumspect in relying on the advice or opinion of any one person or "clique" regardless of how great their reputation is. My advice to them would be to expect a reason or explanation as to why something is bad (or good) and if you can not get from someone who is supposed to know then ignore them.

I really like the post(s) that Chris (90th light) made.....there is a lot in those that people should think about.

[B. N. Singer]

...I realize that I am slow on the uptake...As best as I can read no one said that the subject wrap was 100 original...

Indeed…; reference post #9 and others that seem to “praise” the example.

B. N. Singer