Black Panzer Pioneer Wrap

[Willi Z.]

We are at the point now where 'cliques' and 'ego' interfere with knowledge, and it is too bad.

All cliques are not equal. There are cliques of complete fools who only own, and pass amoung each other, fakes, and there are cliques of very talented collectors. Birds of a feather flock together and membership is generally based on what people buy and own. There is nothing wrong with that.....

The foolish cliques tend to think those in the talented cliques have massive egos and tremendous arrogance, while a very simple root cause analysis whould make it clear why.

It is no different in ANY hobby. Go to shooting range, or competitive match, and you will see the same thing. Why would the skilled shooters want to hang out with the goobers? The skilled ones are trying to improve their skills, and know what it takes to develop and maintain those skills, while the goobers call them arrogant.

[90th Light]

This is a clear case of "Tweedledum and Tweedledee"


Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Agreed to have a battle;
For Tweedledum said Tweedledee
Had spoiled his nice new rattle.

Just then flew down a monstrous crow,
As black as a tar-barrel;
Which frightened both the heroes so,
They quite forgot their quarrel.


Chris

p.s. I am actually agreeing with you Willy but at the end of the day, the real enermy is the "faker" (monstrous crow) and what they will do next ???. We are all in the same battle and to waste our time or energy fighting amongst ourselves is a lost cause. There is much talent in both camps and it is the fakers who deserve the real contempt & hate.

[Leroy]

Point just made............

[Willi Z.]

Point just made............

Indeed!

[Willi Z.]

Chris, I think the real enemy is the clueless collector who thinks this hobby should be unlike any other endeavor in life. Their are fakes and "fakes" in every aspect of life. Whether you are buying a home, car, stocks, artwork, etc or learning a trade, profession, or learning how to play baseball, or take a photo, etc. The first step is knowing who to listen to, and understanding that everyone has a different level of aptitude and skill level.

[Willi Z.]

Maybe if we are lucky, we can lobby the government to get involved in militaria collecting and redistribute our collections and ensure the playing field is level. And not this equal opportunity stuff, rather equal outcomes.

[John Huff]

Maybe if we are lucky, we can lobby the government to get involved in militaria collecting and redistribute our collections and ensure the playing field is level. And not this equal opportunity stuff, rather equal outcomes.

Or.... we could waterboard every collector until we find out who the fakers are...

[Willi Z.]

Or.... we could waterboard every collector until we find out who the fakers are...

But, we already know who sells the fakes. The ones who knowingly sell the fakes know who is making them. We also already know those who make mistakes and unknowingly sell fakes. Since humanity has had $ to buy things there have been fakes to buy.

[kammo man]

Willi ,
Your point about fakes being pushed into other collectors with little knowledge but plenty of money is very true and close to the bone it hurts.
If a collector who knowingly sells this item should then be regarded as a bad egg really hits home indeed .

owen

[Naval Enigma]

i don't think a book, even made by very experienced author(s), should describe how to authentificate a wrap (or whatever hightly faked rare item), giving all details and "tips" about originality.
if so, in 5 five years, nobody wouldl be able to tell the difference between good and bad stuff, even those who would have wrote this book : because with proper money investment (to earn more profit in return), you CAN fake 95 % of those resarched rare items.
those who express themselves about an item on a forum just offer an opinion, and it is to each of us to take them as they are ; they don't HAVE TO justify their words each time, and nobody HAS TO believe them blindly.
some will give full explainations expressing their opinions, and other don't : so what ?
no sheeps, no gurus in collecting : just individual brain working and self responsability.
derka

I agree with everything you say, except for a couple points. There is an assumption that fakers do not possess original wraps that they can disassemble and reverse engineer. A book cannot give you the intricacies of the sewing, the actual proportions of the patterns, and the "hand" of the material. Step one to knocking off a fake: get a real one.

Believe me I understand no one is required to give answers here. I was naively asking for help. That's all. I am frustrated. I have read all the books, I have read every thread on wraps I can find in this database, etcetera.

As Willie says, there are goobers and there are the cool kids who shoot straight. I don't want to be a goober!

Mr. Singer indicated there are Uber-Fakes (Superfakes) out there. I know some collectors do not believe they exist. I am a believer. Where I depart from Mr. Singer (based on my 2 seconds collecting experience versus his decades) is that Superfakes have been around A LONG TIME. I'm talking 30+ years. I also believe they are still being produced to this day.

Back to Derka - There ARE sheep and there ARE gurus. That is human nature. Some voices are listened to. Some people follow.

But you are correct about the individual responsibility piece - The individual spends his money and either wins or loses. If you make a mistake and buy a fake, the buyer, not the seller is reviled and ostracized. "You should have done your homework."

It is difficult to breach the citadels of knowledge in this hobby. The books are rife with fakes. The level of fakery is astounding. And knowledge is not freely shared.

The other issue is some older collectors feel it is a God given right to bury their mistakes into newer collectors. A God given right.

That said Happy Hunting!

Collecting is a full contact sport. Wear your headgear!

[jacquesf]

Willi ,
Your point about fakes being pushed into other collectors with little knowledge but plenty of money is very true and close to the bone it hurts.
If a collector who knowingly sells this item should then be regarded as a bad egg really hits home indeed .

owen

This happened to me, sadly I did not have plenty of money. I allowed trust and a reputation for once to cloud my vision and I got shafted by a guru author. I took one for the team as word is out about him. I see he is mentioned in this thread as producing a book on panzer tunics, God I hope he does not include black m43's in it. Jacques

[kammo man]

Thats sucks J ,
It seems like its the norm these days for advanced collectors to "dump" fake stuff ...
And backed up with theories and weak formed opinion.
o

[derka]

well, i can only offer my wiew about the main point : the wonderfull but dangerous "free knowledge's sharing and offering" of the net.
you can have very good "friends" on the net, mutual and altruistic help too with nice people you will never met.
and that's where i want to come : it will NEVER replace the individual direct contact with old "Chibanis", neither the hand scrutinization of items offered by a teacher who is happy to share with you, young "Padawan", his knowledge and experience because you deserve his trust and that is the proper way to learn.
this is the basis onto wich you build your own criterais and establish your opinion.
and this cannot be found in books, neither with the net.

after, we all agree to disagree, everyone is free to act as he wishes.
no need useless personnal controversies there.

that is the main lesson i try to apply : always keep an open mind and listen what other collectors say/write, but if you can't judge the originality of an item by yourself, without help to make your decision, then you don't realy deserve it because you didn't do what should be done before to get it safely.
this is your responsability, whatever the seller do or other collector's opinions.
if you are unsure, don't get it.
if you get it, then assume it.

so about sharing details on public forums, yes untill a certain point, but IMHO some should be kept

there is no "right to know", or "happy few circles" in collecting, only what you are ready to do or not with your hobby.

sorry if i bored you with this digression.
derka

[Leroy]

...I allowed trust and a reputation for once to cloud my vision and I got shafted by a guru author. I took one for the team as word is out about him. I see he is mentioned in this thread as producing a book on panzer tunics, God I hope he does not include black m43's in it. Jacques

Sorry to hear this. What does the part I put in bold mean?

[Fritz]

This happened to me, sadly I did not have plenty of money. I allowed trust and a reputation for once to cloud my vision and I got shafted by a guru author. I took one for the team as word is out about him. I see he is mentioned in this thread as producing a book on panzer tunics, God I hope he does not include black m43's in it. Jacques

I don't know anything about your M43, but did you edit your post?

Who mentioned "cliques"?


Evil to him who evil thinks.