Nice set of unworn Panzer trousers

[Scott A. Hess]

Crappy sewing is NOT a reason of concern for me too. Even not the use of strange/ different material/Wool/.... An industrie that had to supply approx. 18 Mio soldiers cannot always guarantee the same high standard, eypecially not at the end of the war..

during my duty within the Bundeswehr I have seen (and handled) lots of strange things in our (nonpublic) military collections. Most of the items were presented by veterans and you could assume that everything was worn in WWII.

If these pants are original an interesting question would be why nobody did use them after the war. Jackets and trousers were so rare that everything that was avalaibla was used. I know one veteran who had married in his black panzer wrap for example.

Do anyone know which region 0510 stands for? 0550 is Köln and 0560 Wuppertal, so I assume anything in Nordrein Westfalen.

Lucky.I have many many unissued items which are of a very large size...much to big for the average person..and that could account for why such very large items went unuseud after the war. I have a pair of quite rare what I believe (and others) to be SS winter pants.. white diamond quilted..reversible...they are a size V...yes..FIVE..they are huge....I didnt know they issued a V..but these are real..they are just way to big to wear.

[Scott A. Hess]

Thought I'd post these good pair of DAK shorts..its hard in the photo to make out..but when I zoom in..it is in fact the same RB Nr code..at least this code on the Pz trousers wasn't pulled out of thin air..the font appears a bit different..

[Johnny R]

Do anyone know which region 0510 stands for? 0550 is Köln and 0560 Wuppertal, so I assume anything in Nordrein Westfalen.

510 was used to designate the Gütersloh area in NRW including Batenhorst, Herzebrock, Langenbeg, Lette and Rheda. Manufacturer "80" is not on the list I have but it is incomplete.

[Glenn McInnes]

Do anyone know which region 0510 stands for? 0550 is Köln and 0560 Wuppertal, so I assume anything in Nordrein Westfalen.

On my list I have 0510 as Gutersloh,Westfalen









Glenn

[macca007]

The pants in question weren't a large size I was informed. They were approx a size 32" waist. Fairly common size back then?

[Johnny R]

Gütersloh is a City and a "Kreis" or District, sort of like an American "County". The number designates manufacturers in the general area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCtersloh_(district)

[LuckyStrike23]

On my list I have 0510 as Gutersloh,Westfalen

Glenn

With this info its probably possible to find out the company behind this number. If someone wants to do some research I could provide the contact to the Bundesarchiv. If this company still exist one could probably try to find out if there was a hort found or something else in the past. I know not a big chance but if I had such pants..... I would do it.

[phild]

just to be clear

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I know these trousers to be post war made/fakes. There are maybe a half a dozen characteristics that are not consistent with what I consider "textbook" (there's that word again) PZ trousers, but that does not mean to me that these are fake. I do think that if they are original that they are very late....nothing wrong with that and many will prefer it.

There could have been a hoard of these found in some storage area or even someone's attic that lived near the factory. It is a fact that many, many such hoards have been found and are still being found. Germany may have been short of goods from 1945-1950 but tens of thousands of items of equipment and uniforms were never used up by the public and were still in Germany.....go figure.

What I am going to write will bother a lot of people, but here it is: If and item is made of 100% period materials, made within a cut and technique consistent with period practices and marked in a way that falls within the range of explainable.......well then there is NO way to say the item is fake unless you made it or watched the guy who did.

For anyone interested I can tell folks as a fact that decent PZ fakes were being made and fooling the top dealers in the US as far back as the late 1970s......The examples had a LOT of problems by today's standard of knowledge and these were eventually outed back in the day (by the late 70s and early 80s) when collectors started REALLY paying attention to dacron/poly blended cotton thread and other basic details.

Most items are doable for experienced collectors to tell the original from the fakes, but there are some that right now may not be possible to say 100%, maybe more will be known later that will help all of us.

I agree with Scott Hess that most everything out of perfect norm on these trousers can be explained (snap finish, no depot stamp, poor seams in the waist, button holes, many identical sized examples unissued...etc..) my concern is the detail of the fabric and the "tightness" (for lack of a better word) of the overlap seam detail in the pocket areas and the cuffs.....all of this going on only fair to poor photos in most of these pics.

I also am not blown away by the look (again I only have the photos) of the cuff lining material or how it is laid in, reinforced and just generally done.

[Scott A. Hess]

The pants in question weren't a large size I was informed. They were approx a size 32" waist. Fairly common size back then?

Hello Macca..its not the waist which is unusually large on these pants.its the length..the ones pictured in the Feist/McGuirl book..which I believe to be the same RB number..are sized differently.

[derka]

just for memory :

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...ght=stug+pants

[Scott A. Hess]

just for memory :

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...ght=stug+pants

Hello Derka..I remember the post..I do remember discussing these pz pants wow almost 4 years ago now..interestng reading the opinions re the pants then and now....some consistent..others not...anyway.thanks for the link!

[derka]

hello Scott,
would you have a close wiew of markings on your black pz pants for comparizon ?

[phild]

Hello Derka..I remember the post..I do remember discussing these pz pants wow almost 4 years ago now..interestng reading the opinions re the pants then and now....some consistent..others not...anyway.thanks for the link!

Thanks for the link Derka.

I stand by all of my comments in that thread. I had no memory of it, but went back and read it. I gave away more in that one than I would now....but Oh Well!

[Scott A. Hess]

Thanks for the link Derka.

I stand by all of my comments in that thread. I had no memory of it, but went back and read it. I gave away more in that one than I would now....but Oh Well!

Phil..I realize your opinion is consistent..I was referring to another..who opined at one time they were 100 percent correct..and now are "textbook" fakes...thats all..not much I can add re the pants..they are what they are..either all fake or good..I can't still reconcile them as bad based upon the items you mentioned three years ago...so..it is what it is...if offered them today.I may pass on the JUST becasue of the criticism..however...I typically dont collect by consensus..but I do understand it has become an accepted way to collect.. As I've heard at least two dealers (well respected and top in the US) say..its not whether the piece is real or bad..but whether it is accepted as real or bad..which obviously cuts both ways..good pieces debated as bad..are tainted...and bad pieces can acquire their own legitimacy through the art of collective opinion..I still like the fact the pattons museum piece has a different size..but obviously..although they are likely the same rb nr...you just cant see enough of them...hence.its not a big "plus".

Derka..I only have a 7 year old olympus camera available right now..the nicer digital is in for repair..as soon as its back.I can get you a larger pic of the black trousers markings..

[phild]

Scott, people's opinions and experience evolve (or sometimes retreat!) certainly mine does. I too am not a consnesous collector, I think that it is a weak approach and that facts and truth must be found by research, testing and study rather than by voting and the democratic process.

The PZ trousers may be pre May 45 original. I don't care even if 5000 pairs of identical examples showed up a one time.....that does not make them fake.

I will say that your photos in that older thread were outstanding, not an easy feat with black uniforms.

By the mid 1980s and early 1990's most of the serious fakers were using all period consistant materials (and sometimes actual period materials) in their fakes. At least that is when I started seeing a whole level of uniform fakes unlike what I had seen before. This degree of exactness only leaves stampings and construction details or first hand knowledge of the fake being made to reveal it. Both stampings and many construction details varied during the period and we do now know all of the varieties that were made during the war.

These trousers could be an example of some of those variances.