Need Opinions on Black Leather Greatcoat...

[dzyner]

I picked this up with a few other WWII leather jackets (I'll be posting the others over the next couple days).

I'd like to get some feedback on this. Is it a good one, who might have owned this jacket (which branch, rank, etc), and what else can you tell me about it? There are unfortunately no markings that I can see. If I should be looking for something less obvious, please guide me and I will check.

The buttons appear to be Assmann manufactured.

























Thanks!
Dzyner

[NickG]

The buttons with that "fine pebbling" are typical for DRK (German Red Cross)
There appears to be a support strap for a dagger and a dagger slit is present,
which are positive signs for it to be military or para-military but what era?
and no shoulderboard provisions??? Removed?

[dzyner]

Hi NickG,

Thanks for the reply. I thought the fine pebbles was common to most Heer buttons, no? I have several Heer tunics that appear to have the same style buttons, that's why I ask. The size is odd, but that's because they're on a large (heavy) coat and require more support.

As for the shoulder boards, I have seen leather greatcoats without the shoulder straps and boards...

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H000560.html

Can you, or anyone else for that matter, date this coat based on the materials (interior), stitching, etc?

[Johnny R]

I think there is a very, very, angry Gay man somewhere near the Frankfurt Hbf.

[Johnny R]

I think it may be post war. Do you have any additional info on it. To me it looks East German.

[dzyner]

Johnny,

I'm not sure about the East German idea. Did you have a look at the markings on the reverse of the buttons? Would these have been used post war?

Is there something about it specifically that leads you to believe it may be EG? I personally like the fabric inside the sleeves, and the stitching where that fabric meets the liner; matches well with a TR tunic of mine.

[Johnny R]

The leather quality looks a lot like the 2/3 length jackets that DDR Marine used in the 50s-70s. I will try to find a picture. Are those the only buttons that you can tell have ever been on there?

[Johnny R]

Are these markings at the end of the lines? Maybe an "I" and an abbreviation?

[dzyner]

Johnny,

You have a good eye, but unfortunately I think what you're seeing are a couple small stains and button thread.

I'm not sure why I didn't think to do this earlier, but I ran the entire coat under a black light and nothing glow except the dust. None of the threading, material in the inside sleeves, nothing.

I mentioned in a previous post about the similarities of the stitching and fabric on this greatcoat, when compared with some tunics I own. Here are a couple shots of the inside sleeves of a Heer Captains Tunic I have, and another shot of the same area of an NCO Waffenrock that I own. You can see the similarities in the stitching and fabric. These similarities, along with the buttons, the fact the fabric does not glow under a black light, and the overall look when compared with other greatcoats of the period, make me very skeptical that this is post-war.

Thoughts??





Thanks!
Dzyner

Thoughts??

[NickG]

Hi NickG,

Thanks for the reply. I thought the fine pebbles was common to most Heer buttons, no? I have several Heer tunics that appear to have the same style buttons, that's why I ask.

Not not really ...I disagree...Standard Heer (armed forces) buttons on the right! ... Compare!
The pebbling is coarse (bigger), unlike your buttons.
This type of finer pebbling is more common for para-military buttons like DRK...
as I had mentioned in post 2.

[NickG]

Now here a DRK uniform button with FINE pebbling !
again compared against a more COARSER pattern of pebbling (larger particles)
as usually seen on armed forces uniforms...

That does not automatically make it a war time DRK leather overcoat, but its a clue
this distinct button pattern and I think its a good possibility (if the buttons are original to this coat)
that it could be an officer's DRK leather coat.

[dzyner]

Thanks for clarifying, and taking the time to add the great photos, NickG. Makes sense now!

It seems like none of us can really say for sure whether or not this coat is wartime. Here are the factual bullet points of the coat so far, between what you guys have noted, and what I've observed having the coat in-hand...

• Based on the buttons the coat is not military, but paramilitary at best (e.g. DRK)
  
• Since the coat is unmarked, there are no definitive indicators (other than the buttons) that this is a war time coat
  
• The buttons are Assmann manufactured, which is a wartime manufacturer, but "could" have been replaced - although if I were going to fake a wartime jacket I'd likely do so using military buttons, not DRK (just a point)
  
• Nothing on the jacket (nothing) glows under a black light, which is one of several tools in a collectors toolbox used to determine whether or not something is wartime or post-war
  
• The collar has the hook and loop that is common on German uniforms
  
• There are two slots manufactured into the left-hand side of coat (visible in my photos), in-line with the left-hand pocket - presumably for a sword or dagger hanger
  
• Much of the stitching seems to be period, including the under-side collar stitching and the inside sleeve stitching where the sleeve fabric meets the liner
  
• The overall style is in-line with other examples (examples I've seen online anyway); 6-buttons, french-style cuffs, 2 rounded corner pockets.

The unfortunate thing about these leather coats is that there were a ton of variations, and very little info that I can find online or in my books. There are a lot of replica sites out there, but I need solid examples so I can know for sure. I'm sure you guys can agree there is nothing worse than owning a piece that you're not 100% certain is wartime. I guess I could have the thing carbon-dated if nothing else

I'd love it if someone could post a few links (or even photos from their personal collection) to sites showing some of the known variations because I'm having a hard time finding anything good. Having this coat in-hand as I do, it just doesn't "feel" like a post-war piece but I know its tough to judge 100% based solely on photos, and even having it in-hand makes it tough because there are no markings. It would also be helpful to me (and others who stumble upon this thread) if someone could post photos or links to Post-war coats for comparison.

[dzyner]

I just discovered the mystery of the missing Shoulder Boards.

Upon closer inspection, I found the holes where the shoulder boards were originally. Someone obviously removed them.

See the photo below; two holes for what I assume used to be the loop on the outside edge (see the arrows). Circled by the orange box is what appears to be a roughed up spot in the leather, likely due to the constant rubbing of the rigid edge of the shoulder board against the leather. There is also a small amount of thread left on the inside of the jacket where the button would have gone for the shoulder board. All of these characteristics are mirrored on the other shoulder.

[David Fettes]

Can you show detailed photos of the follow:-

1 - Cream buttons in liner.
2 - Press stud on dagger hanger.
3 - Press studs inside rear skirt.

Also can you see if either pocket has a hole/rip in the liner.

Thanks

[dzyner]

David,

Here are the photos and clarification you requested. Please let me know if you need anything else, I'm happy to provide it...

Regarding #1:




Regarding #2:




Regarding #3:

(Note... There appears to be only one button (missing) that used to reside on the little tab you see in the photo. There also appears to be a non-manufacturer cut slit for receiving the button on the opposite side as noted in the photo. I'm curious if the original configuration may have been "stud" based, but perhaps didn't hold well enough for the owner's liking so he replaced with a larger button?)



Regarding the pocket holes, yes. You can see in my original photos the corresponding two slits on the inside liner:



Hope this helps. Again, please let me know if you need more photos, or have questions.

Thanks David!
Dzyner