scharfschutzenabz. (sniper badge) Gold

[NickG]

I uploaded the photo in the server 5 minutes before I linked it to this thread and changed the name to "scharf" because it was easier to remember for me (instead of IMG0042082.JPG).



None of us has ever looked at it as there was an Scharfschützen insignia.

Probably somekind of trade patch.

OK thanks for the explanation!... The oval shaped patch does not conform to standard polizei trade patches..too large and not round...that's what'ts so puzzling...Estonian insignia of some sort?
I recruted help by linking this back to the Polizei section where I had started a similar thread. Lets see what happens...Maybe you can get it discussed/reviewed on your Estonian forum as well and report feedback?

[PBR]

Just curious, was this Arvo Rästas a German?

[kass]

Rästas is Estonian and the oval badges they are wearing are swastika ones for Schuma. I don`t remember their purpose or name.
There was one scan where the badge was more clear. I can`t find it now. I am not interested on that matter but a friend who collects Estonian Pol.pat. stuff recognized it and used one in he`s setup also. Ones in the pict should be greenish color.

[VPpat]

Its not the SCHUMA patch, to small.

[PBR]

If he was Estonian I wonder why was he using a the SS-Brustabzeichen.
Were foreign volunteers allowed to wear such badge?
Was he a full SS member?

[NickG]

If he was Estonian I wonder why was he using a the SS-Brustabzeichen.
Were foreign volunteers allowed to wear such badge?
Was he a full SS member?

He wore the SS flashes because he was originally in the Wiking Division -Narwa Btl. (retaining his Wiking cuff title) and transfered to the Estonian Division
where he was issued the German pattern (disliked) Estonian collar patch...
So he (unofficially) chose to put the SS flashes on his pocket, eventhough he's not a German national.
I already touched that issue in post 17...

I agree that the sleeve patch appears to be smaller than the Schuma one and has a raised border like the Sniper abzeichen...
but you are probably right...what else could it be if its not sniper...???
Again regular OrdPol. insignia is never oval...but Schuma is! (Usually worn on the upper left sleeve...)

I can see the eagles head but I guess it could also be a Swazi... Nice mannequin Kass! Thanks for solving this mystery!
I knew the answer to this mystery would eventually come from Estonia!

[kass]

T.K. I do not know were the non Germans allowed to use breast runes but old fighters like btl. "Narva" men did not gave a much attention towards some rules and regulations. There was some estonian text in this thread asked to be translated. There was said that btl. Narva men were not officially allowed to use Wiking cufftitle anymore after they left the division but they still did and it was looked through the fingers.

[Ludwig]

I like it. These fascinate me as well!

Seen this thread yet? In below link, which I posted in the Polizei section for obvious reasons!
Image repeated here!


.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=sniper




.

In the book "Eesti Leegion" by Sonas Ja Pildis, you can find the picture on page 328 and there are at least three more photos from the same occasion.
The man with the Wiking cufftitle is SS-Sturmmann Arvo Rästas (Estonian) from the 20th Fusilier Battalion. Some of the other men are from the 286th Police Battalion. Summer 1944 in Kivinomme, Narwa front.
No sign of any Scharfschützenabzeichen in these pictures, and I cannot in my wildest fantasies believe that someone would remove any from the original photo!

[PBR]

He wore the SS flashes because he was originally in the Wiking Division -Narwa Btl. (retaining his Wiking cuff title) and transfered to the Estonian Division
where he was issued the German pattern (disliked) Estonian collar patch...
So he (unofficially) chose to put the SS flashes on his pocket, eventhough he's not a German national.

Sorry Nick but this is just speculation IMO.
Retaining of the CF of your former unit was officially permitted, but to wear the SS-Brustabzeichen you had to be full SS member, nothing to do with Wiking, otherwise, if all non-germans were allowed to wear the runes, what the other kind of tabs were done for?
SS-Brustabzeichen was meant for SS-Nr. holders only and the rules were kinda strict.

[NickG]

Sorry Nick but this is just speculation IMO.
Retaining of the CF of your former unit was officially permitted, but to wear the SS-Brustabzeichen you had to be full SS member, nothing to do with Wiking, otherwise, if all non-germans were allowed to wear the runes, what the other kind of tabs were done for?
SS-Brustabzeichen was meant for SS-Nr. holders only and the rules were kinda strict.

I agree with that statement. Those were the official rules...I am aware of what they were supposed to do... and my explanation is indeed speculation but what other reason would there be to adopt that insignia? Its like Handschar Division German cadre members with Handschar tabs wearing the breast runes...They had the right to wear SS tabs but wore Handschar tabs with breast runes instead... This guy obviously did the same thing eventhough he's not a full fledged SS member/German National...

[Ernst-H]

OK thanks for the explanation!... The oval shaped patch does not conform to standard polizei trade patches..too large and not round...that's what'ts so puzzling.................

Some tradepatches for the Polizei were indeed oval in shape. So that is no issue.
On the other hand the insignia in the picture might actually be round....because it is viewed from a slight angle it appears round.

IMHO the patch being discussed here is a Sonderdienstabzeichen (Specialty insignia) for an "Apotheker"

If you look good and not invent any eagle shape you can see that on the patch is seen a large gothic capital "A"

[PBR]

Its like Handschar Division German cadre members with Handschar tabs wearing the breast runes...They had the right to wear SS tabs but wore Handschar tabs with breast runes instead... This guy obviously did the same thing eventhough he's not a full fledged SS member/German National...

Nick, I agree, but the difference is that these Handschar were actually full SS german members!
This guy is Estonian!
It's the first time I see such kind of badge on non-german\germanic\volksdeutsche soldiers.

[NickG]

Nick, I agree, but the difference is that these Handschar were actually full SS german members!
This guy is Estonian!
It's the first time I see such kind of badge on non-german\germanic\volksdeutsche soldiers.

Now the focus has shifted from the trade patch on the sleeve of the Polizei member (explained as "Apotheker" /pharmacist with gothic "A")
to the SS breast flashes, parallel thread in the Polizei section...
Perhaps its not an SS membership patch after all...
but instead somekind of badge (metal?) surrounded by a wreath? Thoughts?

More here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post3724514

[kass]

It's the first time I see such kind of badge on non-german\germanic\volksdeutsche soldiers.

There`s more photos of Estonians wearing runes on the breast. Probably cut from old rune tabs.

[kass]

Sorry if going a bit OT.
Here are some more ex. "Narva" men with breast runes.
1944 at Auvere (eastern Estonia front)
Heino Reigo


Richard Ilves


And Harald Riipalu. Commander of the 45 reg. of the 20th Division. During the Auvere battles the ex. "Narva" btl. was under he`s command.