scharfschutzenabz. (sniper badge) Gold

[Soldat de Fer]

Just gonna throw this out there, maybe we are looking at the unit sharp shooters, not just 2 singular snipers. Perhaps in more of a rear area?? I have not seen any other pics from the album but its just a thought. No sniper would wear this badge in the field as it would mean instant death. If you read books about snipers on the Russian front they would even try to hide their rifles if their possition was in danger of being overrun. Which makes total sense to me, as you may survive if your simply had a k98 or a M40 but if you had a sniper rifle you were done. They were such feared hunters by both sides that no quarter was shown to either sides snipers. I do feel that its a legit period photo but think we would be looking at a group shot of the unit or Regiments snipers and not just a rouge pair. Plus I would think that maybe this is a training area since those two are wearing their patches and look how clean the uniforms appear on the two snipers. They are obvisously not at the front. Matt

Hello
Based on this picture , I would agree as well , one guy from a police unit , at least 4 ss and 2 wh guys , only at the rear would such different units be together .
Regards
P-Y

[NickG]

Just gonna throw this out there, maybe we are looking at the unit sharp shooters, not just 2 singular snipers. Perhaps in more of a rear area?? I have not seen any other pics from the album but its just a thought. No sniper would wear this badge in the field as it would mean instant death. If you read books about snipers on the Russian front they would even try to hide their rifles if their possition was in danger of being overrun. Which makes total sense to me, as you may survive if your simply had a k98 or a M40 but if you had a sniper rifle you were done. They were such feared hunters by both sides that no quarter was shown to either sides snipers. I do feel that its a legit period photo but think we would be looking at a group shot of the unit or Regiments snipers and not just a rouge pair. Plus I would think that maybe this is a training area since those two are wearing their patches and look how clean the uniforms appear on the two snipers. They are obvisously not at the front. Matt
____________________________________

Could be Matt...
Here's another image of one of the soldiers from that group shot...(Narwa front)
He's an Estonian former member of the Wiking Div. Of interest is the SS membership insignia.
He was a Wiking Division veteran who got transfered to the 20th Estonian Division, serving at the Narva front in 1944 and was issued a (German pattern) Estonian tab instead of his (former) Wiking SS flash tab, so he was entitled to (or decided to) wear the SS runes on his pocket instead, as a badge of honor along with his Wiking cuff title...to show his former status as ex-member of that famous unit. (SS Panzer Grenadier Abteilung Narwa-Wiking Div)
Wiking was no where near the Baltics at that time...They were in Poland and Hungary during the Narwa front /Courland pocket siege if I'm not mistaken...

Perhaps somebody can translate this:
(could shed some light on that group shot, as its from the same photographic sequence)
Narva rindel võisid oma mundriga vabalt segsdust tekitada endise Wiking diviisi pataljon Narva mehed. Kuigi ametlikult oldi juba 1944.a. kevadtalvest alates Füsilier Batallion 20 (20. Estnische SS Freiwilligen Division), kutsuti neid isegi Eesti diviisi juhtkonna poolt edasi "pataljon Narva" ja vaadati läbi sõrmede ka sellele, et mehed endiselt "Wiking" linti varrukal kannavad. Olukorra illustreerimiseks toon ära ühe pildi Narva rindelt.

[NickG]

Hello
Based on this picture , I would agree as well , one guy from a police unit , at least 4 ss and 2 wh guys , only at the rear would such different units be together .
Regards
P-Y

No WH guys in that group shot...(splinter camo is NOT automatically WH)
5 Polizei and 2 waffen SS = 7 total. [/COLOR]
These are all Waffen SS + Ordungspolizei uniforms worn by Estonians...
actually "Estland Schuma" (Schutzmanschaften), a rear guard police/security force... That makes me wonder if they would even have sniper trained personnel? Schuma was considered a second rate unit...but pressed into front line service when the rear areas became front lines...

[Sturmmann]

Is that a print or a period photo - you need to be careful with these.

Seems to me that You (generally speaking about collectors from USA) are paranoid about everything that comes from Estonia. All the helmets, equipment, insignias and now even the photos which were taken in Estonia during War are fakes? Maybe should visit a doctor about that?

After all German Army was in Estonia from 1941 until the end of 1944 so it is not a miracle to find some of their original equipment, uniforms, photos, documents they left behind. It looks to me that in Your opinion only authentic German militaria can be found in the States. Refresh my memory - how many Waffen-SS divisions fought near California area - was it 9 or 10? And I guess Armeegrupp Nord was transfered near the Canadian border too in the end of 1944?

Ok - enough about that. Now the photo. NO - the photo is NOT edited in Photoshop or in any other program. The picture was taken in the summer of 1944 in Kivinõmme near Narwa. There are men from 286. Police Batallion and 20. Waffen-SS Fusilier Batallion (former "Narwa"). Man with the "Wiking" cufftitle is Arvo Rästas.



As far as I know the Sniper Badge was first awarded to soldiers on 1.09.1944 but the photo with estonians was taken in July/August 1944 so it can't be the Sniper Badge they are wearing.

[chrisson007]

Here a original Sniper Badge!

[afrikasandman]

Seems to me that You (generally speaking about collectors from USA) are paranoid about everything that comes from Estonia. All the helmets, equipment, insignias and now even the photos which were taken in Estonia during War are fakes? Maybe should visit a doctor about that?

After all German Army was in Estonia from 1941 until the end of 1944 so it is not a miracle to find some of their original equipment, uniforms, photos, documents they left behind. It looks to me that in Your opinion only authentic German militaria can be found in the States. Refresh my memory - how many Waffen-SS divisions fought near California area - was it 9 or 10? And I guess Armeegrupp Nord was transfered near the Canadian border too in the end of 1944?

Ok - enough about that. Now the photo. NO - the photo is NOT edited in Photoshop or in any other program. The picture was taken in the summer of 1944 in Kivinõmme near Narwa. There are men from 286. Police Batallion and 20. Waffen-SS Fusilier Batallion (former "Narwa"). Man with the "Wiking" cufftitle is Arvo Rästas.



As far as I know the Sniper Badge was first awarded to soldiers on 1.09.1944 but the photo with estonians was taken in July/August 1944 so it can't be the Sniper Badge they are wearing.

Sturmmann,

Not everyting out of Estonia is repro but you have to admit that the majority of items that are placed on ebay or what not from Estonia are reproductions. That is why everyone is always skeptical, same thing with items out of the Ukraine and Russia itself. Hell I believe all SS is fake until it has proven itself good and I don't collect it so I can oliviate that problem for myself. I find the SS units very interesting and especially the Russian front but do not care to wade through the sea of fakes. I do have some SS but its just collar tabs and what not that im comfortable with. Damn shame the SS didn't fight in California, they would have enjoyed the weather much more than Russia
As for the sniper badge, the picture clearly shows a sniper badge. Perhaps one of the first issued? I don't know the exact dates when they were instituted but I don't think one can really deny that the badge on the policeman is in fact a snipers badge and pipped in silver or gold. Its a great picture! Definatly a rare bird to say the least. I will stand fast with my belief that this is a rear area and they are just grouping a bunch of sharp shooters/snipers together for a group photo.
Also I dig that police guy or what ever branch in that camo custom made tunic. I would say it looks like Italian camo material and its pretty much pimpin! Hard to find good photos of custom done tunics. Matt

[B. N. Singer]

Seems to me that You (generally speaking about collectors from USA) are paranoid about everything that comes from Estonia.....Refresh my memory - how many Waffen-SS divisions fought near California area - was it 9 or 10?

How about the Chicago area?

B. N. Singer

[Johnny R]

How about the Chicago area?

B. N. Singer

Here you can see some Division Wiking men trapped in a Kubelwagen at Fulton and Western. Note the man in the backseat also is wearing a sniper badge.

[Johnny R]

I did not even look at the story of where the image came from and was speaking to the fact that large numbers of period images are manipulated for resale using photoshop. So nothing specific about your Country was said and your reaction and generalization about 10s of thousands of Americans seems to indicate you, rather than I, are making an invalid gross nation insulting sterotype that was unwarranted and has no basis in reality. No doctor needed for your prognosis and there is no cure.

[B. N. Singer]

Here you can see some Division Wiking men trapped in a Kubelwagen at Fulton and Western. Note the man in the backseat also is wearing a sniper badge.

Thank you sir for that revealing picture.

B. N. Singer

[NickG]

Seems to me that You (generally speaking about collectors from USA) are paranoid about everything that comes from Estonia. All the helmets, equipment, insignias and now even the photos which were taken in Estonia during War are fakes? Maybe should visit a doctor about that?

After all German Army was in Estonia from 1941 until the end of 1944 so it is not a miracle to find some of their original equipment, uniforms, photos, documents they left behind. It looks to me that in Your opinion only authentic German militaria can be found in the States. Refresh my memory - how many Waffen-SS divisions fought near California area - was it 9 or 10? And I guess Armeegrupp Nord was transfered near the Canadian border too in the end of 1944?

Ok - enough about that. Now the photo. NO - the photo is NOT edited in Photoshop or in any other program. The picture was taken in the summer of 1944 in Kivinõmme near Narwa. There are men from 286. Police Batallion and 20. Waffen-SS Fusilier Batallion (former "Narwa"). Man with the "Wiking" cufftitle is Arvo Rästas.



As far as I know the Sniper Badge was first awarded to soldiers on 1.09.1944 but the photo with estonians was taken in July/August 1944 so it can't be the Sniper Badge they are wearing.

______________________________________________
Agreed! From wikipedia:The sniper's badge was instituted on 20 August 1944 by Adolf Hitler. The introduction of remission read: ... in recognition of the individual shooter with a rifle as a sniper, and for appreciation of the successes achieved here I introduce to the army and the Waffen SS, the sniper badge. By order of the High Command of 14 December 1944, it was also made available to the other armed services. (combat police)

Sniper's badge and capture;
The German High Command issued an order in 1945, that the sniper's badge had to be removed before capture, since predominantly Russian troops immediately shot every captured enemy sniper.

Indeed unlikely that its a sniper based on the date... Its interesting to note that the Jpeg image has in its title description the word "sharf"
= Scharf- und Präzisionsschützen (=sniper), so when the image surfaced in Estonia (and discussed on an Estonian forum)
the patch was also observed and discussed as possibly being the elusive piped Sniper sleeve oval.
http://www.wehrmacht.pri.ee/foorumisse/scharf

What was the verdict of the patch in Estonia? Its an undoctored (untouched) image, so it must be somekind of trade patch...
but again Polizei had round trade/specialty patched, not oval... The mystery remains unsolved...
or the date is wrong?

PS: great patch Chrisson007! Thanks for sharing it!

[chrisson007]

Here some more pictures, i also get the Soldbuch and the award doc. I will take some pictures and post them.

[chrisson007]

2

[chrisson007]

The special on this man was not only the sniper badge, he was first at a police mountain troop unit and than he changes to the Waffen SS ( 16.SS Div. Reichsführer SS)

[Sturmmann]

Its interesting to note that the Jpeg image has in its title description the word "sharf"

I uploaded the photo in the server 5 minutes before I linked it to this thread and changed the name to "scharf" because it was easier to remember for me (instead of IMG0042082.JPG).

What was the verdict of the patch in Estonia?

None of us has ever looked at it as there was an Scharfschützen insignia.

Probably somekind of trade patch.