Assault Gun collar tabs in wear by the 10th Panzer

[NZMark]

Tim,
Very True!
Here's a super photo nicked from M. Pruett's & J. Edwards excellent work "Field uniforms of German Army Panzer Forces In WWII" (ISBN 0-921991-15-0), photos belonging to Heinz Reinhardt.

[NZMark]

...and a priceless pair from the same source. 2nd pattern tunics this time...
Mark

[MilitaryCollect]

Assault Gun collar tabs in wear by the 10th Panzer

Hello,

10th Panzer (Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 90) did have at least one STuG batterie in Tunis:

1943 erhielt das Regiment eine Sturmgeschütz-Batterie.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm (Please click on "Panzer Art'y Rgt. 90").

Am searching for SP guns within any of the 4 battalions within the 90th Panzer Artillerie Rgt. (each battalion having 1 staff batterie + 3 batteries), see http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...eg/PAR90-R.htm --- AND --- 4/90th Afrika Artillery Rgt. also having a staff batterie + 3 batteries - as per Nafziger (TAKOAH, pp. 5-6). Help appreciated.

I believe RED piped on grey tabs would be correct for a panzer art'y rgt.

Also, as an aside, here's a neat link regarding the Tunis chronology of events:

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=U...wAG9QOGgCS7A--

Christopher

[Gustavo66]

Here is a portrait from a soldier in pz rgt 33: don't know exactly which kind of tunic he is wearing.

Gustavo

[Tim O'Keefe]

Mark

Outstanding photo's ! Gotta like the Pz troopen wearin' the black OS caps too.
Always liked that combo of uniform. The second pattern tunics demonstrate that the tradition was continued, not a one off. Thanks for posting.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chistopher

The 90th Art Regt was really an AA Regt. The 1st Co had the following...

The 1st & 2nd Baty's had 1 platoon of 88mm's along with a platoon of SPAA 20mm. The 3rd Baty was made up of 3 platoons StG IIIf only.

Thats why i don''t think the AFV photos are from SPART units like the Hummel and Wespe or for that matter Pz Jg like the Marder etc. More likely the STG crews.

I Think that it could also be the SDKFZ 231 in the 10th Motorcycle Bn which acted as recon for the 10th Pz Div. The recon units also wore the black tabs in this Div as well.

There was also a platoon of STG IIId attached to the SB288 unit as well.
But this was in June '42 in the second battle for Tobruk, this unit wore just the standard tropical tunic with tk's attached.

[MilitaryCollect]

Assault Gun collar tabs in wear by the 10th Panzer

Hi Tim,

Thank you for the info! Great stuff.

Below is a close-up of the tab in posts 5 & 10 below. I am certain that there is a red border to the grey AG tab and that the waffenfarbe on the boards is red. I wish I could provide a better photo, but the image in Mark's post 5 is much clearer.

And now for the ultimate question: which unit would wear red piping on the boards and grey tabs?

Christopher

[NZMark]

Chris,
I also think that the colour piping is red due to the vehicle in use, but it's a hard call from the period still. Here's my example in black and white simply for tonality comparison...
Mark

[MilitaryCollect]

Assault Gun collar tabs in wear by the 10th Panzer

Chris,
I also think that the colour piping is red due to the vehicle in use, but it's a hard call from the period still. Here's my example in black and white simply for tonality comparison...
Mark

Hello,

Completely agree Mark! The black & white comparison is astonishingly similar.

Further, the actual footage on the dvd is somewhat colorized, but I can't get a good photo of it. (Quality photos from a television are VERY hard if not impossible to get.) The piping is red and the backing appears to be grey.

Tim, did the 10th Panzer utilize a Marder, Hummel or other open turret vehicle within any of it's units appearing in the Tunisian order of battle? The footage from the dvd could be a StuG, but I still kinda wonder. The reason is that the vehicle appearing in the footage may have an open turret.

Thank you,

Christopher

[Tim O'Keefe]

Your most welcome Christopher

The 10th Pz did not have any open turret AFV other than Hv Co of the Recon Bn, the SDKFZ 231 & 234 The Div was split into two KampfGruppe at the arrival in Tunisia and though sometimes combined briefly, operated this way for the duration.
Each KG had 1 Bn of Pz from the 7th Pz Regt. and a Bn each from the 69th & 86th Pz Gr Regts which were really motorized Inf. The 10th Motorcycle (recon) Bn with one KG and the 90th Art Regt with the other.... The Pz Jg Co's in the two Pz Gr Regt's & the Recon Bn had towed 50mm not SP Pz Jg. There were also some towed 105mm Art attached as well.

Agree that Mark's B&W photo of that wonderful tunic does match up well with the photo, but Ralph's 7th Pz Regt tunic is not far off on the piping either from the photo.

It may be possible that the photos are from two units, the STG Co's and the Hv Co of the Motorcycle Bn in the SDKFZ 234's in open turrets...?

Any thoughts on Gustavo's photo ?

Heia safari

[MilitaryCollect]

Assault Gun collar tabs in wear by the 10th Panzer

Tim,

I believe you're quite correct. The footage of the vehicle hosting the DAK gunner with the assault tabs with red borders more closely resembles the STuG III(f). Below is a photo of a scale model of the STuG III(f)'s interior. Please note the position of the aiming wheel and periscope in posts 5, 10 & 11 below. I also looked at the interiors of the sdkfz 234 and it's predecessor - the 231 -and neither seems to flip the bill.

So, based on the period photographic evidence, it would appear that Mark's tunic may well have been from a STuG company in North Afrika.

My best guess on Gustavo's tunic is a privately tailored piece.

Christopher

[Michael H. Pruett]

Panzeraufklärer

Interesting post! In regards to the photos of the gunner & vehicle in posts #5, 10 & 11 this a Sd Kfz 233 Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (7.5cm) and appears in a film strip driving down a road and followed by a Sd Kfz 222 Panzerspähwagen. I recall this film was shot in Tunisia. The gunner appears clearly in the film wearing the death head collar tabs. A friend has a single collar tab that was a GI bring back and is labeled on the back "10th Panzer Division". The tab is made of tropical uniform cloth and piped in golden yellow. This answered for me (in part) what type of collar tabs the gunner is possibly wearing in the film strip. I believe these tabs were possibly made in the field and at the unit level.
I'll try and post some more over the weekend.

Best regards,
Mike

[MilitaryCollect]

Hello,

Here's another neat link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwere...sp%C3%A4hwagen

Can anyone please identify which type of unit would wear grey tabs with red piping & red piped boards? My best guesstimate are sturmgeschütz crews, self-propelled panzer artillery crews, and even regular panzer crewmen from 43' onward.

Best,

Christopher

[Michael H. Pruett]

SP Arty in DAK

There was actually very little in the way of SP Artillery sent to DAK.
The Wespe & Hummel were delivered to the troops too late to be sent to DAK as I recall. See link below.

http://www.afvnews.org/155artregt.html

The remaining choices IMHO would be StuG and Sd Kfz 250 series Beobachtungspanzerwagen.

More later when time permits.

Take care,
Mike

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the excellent further info. Was puzzled by what appeared to be the 75/24mm Gun in the video. Knew it could not be the 234/3 as that came out later. But had overlooked the 233 being armed with this weapon. The AFV in the Hv Co of the 10th Recon Bn now has been correctly indentified as the 233. Thanks also for the confirmation of the video location and unit.

The DAK SPART was a collection of unusual AFV including the Lorraine
135/1 in Alamain & Tunisia, the sIG 33 and the Diana mounting the 76mm "crashboom", all open topped, were some of the variants used earlier by the DAK, but the 10th Pz did not have these weapons.


Would like to see the Cav tab when You can...

& Christopher

You are correct that the STG crewman wore the grey piped red insignia.

Great discussion