GD RK Winner Maximillian Fabich Tunic

[Panzer Rob]

I'm the one who started this when I saw it for sale. I asked whether this one was named. I did so because I have a very strong believe that it is a GD made up one. No GD cyphers on the shoulder boards, the GD CT is sewn on it as if a housmaid did it. And the pic that goes along with it gives no proof that this man is indeed a GD member. Come on guy's, such a high ranking officer with no GD cyphers, with a fluffy GD CT ??!!

Hopefully this is proof enough for you

(of course - this says nothing about the tunic that started this thread)

Rob

[Panzer Rob]

another - notice that the Soldbuch was issued through "Großdeutschland:"

[cbs]

I cannot take credit for the research of another individual but this was gifted to me very recently. For those interested .... this is a good outline of Fabich's military career: As Rob states above ... this is clearly a soldier that fought in the GD for great duration of the war.


Infanterie Lehr Regiment 1938
Platoon leader 1./IR GD 1939 and 1940
Acting company commander 3./IR GD 1940
Company commander 3./IR GD 1940-1942
Badly wounded early 1942 and had a long hospital stay (almost 5 months)
Acting company commander I./Grenadier Ersatz Regiment GD from mid to end of 1942
General Staff training in 1943 and initial general staff assignment was to 134 ID, 35 Armee Korps carried him almost completely through 1943
In early 1944 he was assigned to a Panzer divisionand Panzer Korps briefly (barely a month),
Summer 1944 was assigned to Heeregruppe Mitte and then made a battalion commander of a Füsilier Battalion (again - no clear indication of which) - again briefly
went into Führer Reserve for a time... and his record from this point is not complete.

I have found this last circumstance to be typical in the last 6-8 months of the war, from looking at dozens of personnel files at NARA.

His initial RK and DKiG award recommendations were made on 26 January 1942 -so around the time of the withdrawal from Moscow...RK was disapproved and his file indicates the DKiG was approved 31 January 1942.

[cbs]

Thank you for sharing that Rob. I just heard today about the Soldbuch .... had I know that was out there !!!!!!! wow ... I surely would not have this on Estand at the moment. The photo of Fabich that I possess definitely shows a color that is Very arguably NOT a white waffenfarbe on his shoulder straps and has NO GD Ciphers so the mystery continues with this officer.


1. We know he wore white
2. He served on the General Staff ... Carmine Red
3. He shows a light color (NOT WHITE) in another wartime photograph.
4. This Tunic shows Gold Cav

Man I would have wanted to hang with this guy !!! .

[ApathyL]

even in the soldbuch he is in a wrapper and with the GD cyphers.......

[cbs]

He would be Apathy. You should also notice --- at least it looks to me that its WHITE Piped. If you read the carreer path I just posted you will see the chain of his duty listings. Do you suggest that the photos of Fabich that shows a wrap that has no ciphers is not the same individual as the one that has ciphers? All you have to do is side by side the photos to know this is the same man.

[GD/LW]

OK, you came up with a lot of evidence. The CT seems to be tightly sewn up and now I believe it to be original to the tunic. It also seems that the guy in the Soldbuch is the same man.
And yes I know and knew that Fabich served in the GD !
I'm just wondering where his shoulderboards with the GD cyphers (seen in the soldbuch) are !
I would have liked to see a nametag inside the tunic because the evidence of him wearing this particular tunic is not given. I see twice a wrapper. If one says that a certain uniform belonged to a soldier he must state this with a nametag or a photographic evidence, if not, it stays a tunic (GD or not).

Jan

[CWP]

I remember when Bill Shea offered this tunic for sale and I considered buying it at that time but it did not last long on his site at all. To me, the "chain of custody" of this tunic coupled with the documentation provided by the dealer in this case is compelling. This constitutes provenance with a Bill Shea signature, no dealer is foolproof but he is probably the most well-respected American dealer. I think that applying the "buy the item not the story" mentality too liberally sometimes obscures the history that stands behind the items we collect. I think the seller in this case has abundatly demonstrated that the piping is not signals and the stitching on the cuff title seems indicative of original application. For what it is worth, I believe this tunic probably did belong to Fabich. He could have removed the cyphers himself to put them on a new or different uniform. We have all seen cases where the wrong shade of Waffenfarbe was used during the war or the color was changed with ink, clearly the right insignia combination was not always available in wartime. With the written provenance that accompanies this uniform, I think it can be given the benefit of the doubt, especially since the seller's asking price is in my opinion not outrageous for what he is offering. Even if it was named inside, a forged tag could have been added- iron-clad proof is nearly impossible to come across with identified uniforms and the documentation with this one is as good or better than a lot of what is out there.

[GD/LW]

I remember when Bill Shea offered this tunic for sale and I considered buying it at that time but it did not last long on his site at all. To me, the "chain of custody" of this tunic coupled with the documentation provided by the dealer in this case is compelling. This constitutes provenance with a Bill Shea signature, no dealer is foolproof but he is probably the most well-respected American dealer. I think that applying the "buy the item not the story" mentality too liberally sometimes obscures the history that stands behind the items we collect. I think the seller in this case has abundatly demonstrated that the piping is not signals and the stitching on the cuff title seems indicative of original application. For what it is worth, I believe this tunic probably did belong to Fabich. He could have removed the cyphers himself to put them on a new or different uniform. We have all seen cases where the wrong shade of Waffenfarbe was used during the war or the color was changed with ink, clearly the right insignia combination was not always available in wartime. With the written provenance that accompanies this uniform, I think it can be given the benefit of the doubt, especially since the seller's asking price is in my opinion not outrageous for what he is offering. Even if it was named inside, a forged tag could have been added- iron-clad proof is nearly impossible to come across with identified uniforms and the documentation with this one is as good or better than a lot of what is out there.

OK than there will be no problem selling the tunic. After all that was the goal

Jan

[JuanS]

Hi

I have 2 questions for my personal information.
1. Did the GrossD had reguklations about cyphers and cuff tittle? I think is redundant to use a GD cufftittle and a cypher at the same time.
2. If you served at the GD unit at some point, were you allowed to use the cufftittle in your walking out uniform?


thanks

Juan

[cbs]

Juan I don't know off the top of my head but when I get a chance I can see if I can dig and post something for you ...

To all those who have asked very intelligent questions or offered what I think are pointed concerns or participated in the commentary by adding some very valuable information on this soldier I say thank you. I have actually fallen in love (again) with this uniform. The posts here in open forum are just the tip of the iceberg to the wealth of information on Fabich that has been sent in private. I had done some informal research and found out a few items of interest ...... but they are nowhere near the depth of what I have discovered through the aid of Friends of this Forum.

I can't say enough good things for you all.

To those who still have concerns about this uniform. I think in some respects you have good reason. We have a career officer in the infantry with cavalry tabs. That alone gives reason for pause. Its when you start to unravel the pieces of this man's career that the answer becomes less and less mysterious. I believe the final answer lies in the short stint that he served in the PzKorps GD. The reconsitution of the Aufklarer Units into formation of Pz Korps GD Fusillers may be a good start to the ultimate explanation ----- its certainly not determinative ------- there is no last step here that confirms that the unit was wearing gold waffenfarbe. Also taking into account that this all occured in the last year and a half of the war and the GD had more presssing matters on its hands than worrying about the waffenfarbe that the regiment would ultimately wear.

There is no doubt in my mind from my very humble research to that of others who have contributed their take in the last few days -- both public and privately-- that Fabich is correctly attributed to this uniform --- what gets me is why White to Gold to White which is what I think from my research did happen. These are the mysteries that I think keep this hobby renewed and fun.

I love text book and one lookers... who doesn't ...but lets face it when we find challenges its truly fun to start to unravel them .... lead to things that we didn't know existed or didn't happen quite as we expect.

Applying finally the principal of Axom's Razor.... it would have been far easier for someone to contrive a white piped wrap for Fabich than a golden yellow tunic.

Thats the beauty of this hobby ...... we are part historian, part detective and part story

[ApathyL]

I wouldnt buy it without any proof, to me any dealers signature on any item is nothing compared to actuall historical evidence, which there is none on this tunic....even though that dealer is well respected, I never take his or others word, because your just another one who spends money with them....

[cbs]

Apathy. With as much patience and respect as can be mustered. Proof has been offered. There is chain of possession here. The Uniform is consistent with the GD. Read through the thread.

No one here is saying that just because it sold from a dealer it is what it is. In this case there is documentation. This is not the first discussion on this piece and people in the Know about the GD --- have the same impression Chris expressed.

If you want to offer something valuable please do. I welcome it but so far the only two posts from you and this is said in due respect are :

1. Where are the pictures (after I had said I was in the Office and couldn't take them)

2. And a post that you don't believe in dealers. --- Ok ... point taken. Thats not how this discussion was approached.

Perhaps you could offer some proof as to why this isn't Fabich's Tunic? In light of what has been presented -- or is this just a gut feel ?

[ApathyL]

Apathy. With as much patience and respect as can be mustered. Proof has been offered. There is chain of possession here. The Uniform is consistent with the GD. Read through the thread.

No one here is saying that just because it sold from a dealer it is what it is. In this case there is documentation. This is not the first discussion on this piece and people in the Know about the GD --- have the same impression Chris expressed.

If you want to offer something valuable please do. I welcome it but so far the only two posts from you and this is said in due respect are :

1. Where are the pictures (after I had said I was in the Office and couldn't take them)

2. And a post that you don't believe in dealers. --- Ok ... point taken. Thats not how this discussion was approached.

Perhaps you could offer some proof as to why this isn't Fabich's Tunic? In light of what has been presented -- or is this just a gut feel ?

no hard feelings mate but I tend to believe this tunic has been put together. I honestly believe that. I will not, if, you can show me a photo him with this exact tunic on. In the ones shown already he has wrappers on so thats no proof with regards to the actual tunic. No one ever said he did not exist but to me a dealers letter is no proof at all, im saying that because the "proof" provided only shows that he did exist, but not that this piece did belong to him. And ok, some GD personnel in the field especially forgot about the cyphers, but a minty tunic without cyphers, no original name tag, no photo of him in the tunic,.... its honestly not a piece I would be happy with. Sorry.


Regards, Les.

[cbs]

Fair enough .... not trying to convince what is not mine to convince. I am not trying to change your point --- a gut feel is a gut feel. I can't do much with that.

In my now fair research on this matter I draw a different conclusion based on the history of this individual at points in his career and the chain of possession of this tunic.