Experts on Wehrmacht General ranks --- please share you knowledge...

[TJ Suter]

Laurence

On the Beamte side carmine (bordo) was also used for Supreme Courts Martial Officials (Reichskriegsgericht). The official order is: Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen 36, number 712 (31 Oct 1936).

Of all the services, the Officials are the hardest to keep straight.

[TJ Suter]

In addition, I think what adds to the confusion is that different authors/references use different colors for the same branch i.e. for Judicial I have seen the color listed as wine red, bordeaux red, and carmine. Add to that 64+ years of sun, rain, and dirt (not to mention different materials and dye lots) and it can become very difficult at times to determine exactly what waffenfarben the strap/board actually is.

This thread is titled Experts on Wehrmacht General ranks. Just for the record, I don't consider myself an expert.

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Thomas thanks for that. Where would one find one of those experts....I'm just learning myself

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Thomas

A confusing subject indeed. Needed some time to open the book. All I have is the german version "Die Deutsche Wehrmacht. Uniformierung und Ausrustung 1933 - 1945 Band 1" by Schlicht & Angolia.

They list:

Reichkriegsgericht bordo same Admin order numbers as you

and

Heeresjsutizbeamte hellblau 24. 12. 33 (HV 33, Nr 586)


Once again I am trying to learn here. It's a subject that does interest me, so if anyone else can help fill in the blanks, please join in.

[Kurt]

Gentlemen! I admire your modesty. Since I am the one who came up with the name for this thread, let me say that I had people like you in mind when I refered to experts. It is all a question of perspective and you are definitely more knowledgable in this field than I am. I learned a lot already and have to say I think this thread was long overdue.

Laurence, that illustration is the first "proof" I've ever seen that General rank visors with the TSD and Judical Waffenfarbe officially existed. (OK, it's my assumption the illustration is from the Third Reich period). Can you say where it was published. Would be interesting to know what year it is...

Hi Kurt.

Beamte a. K. would wear a regular Heer visor with a Dark green waffenfarbe which it has, also the eagle and wreath should be silver in color for HV.. Interesting visor, as I have never had one in hand do those grey bands come off without major alteration?.

These grey cap bands (a. K.) do not come off without destroying the cap. These (at least for "normal" officials) were produced like that. The cap bands are exactly like the ones on Sonderführers visors, only the piping is dark green. I have of course never handled the example I posted earlier and only quoted these pics from the book. From the images, the cap looks like a legitimate Erel to me.

Here is one of my "regular" a. K. visors for comparison:

[Vincent S.]

I thought I would contribute to this interesting thread with pictures of HV troops, no Generals though. Although my main interest goes to winter uniforms, I concur with Laurence that the Beamte a.K wore the same type of uniforms as the Heer, but with different insignia. This is just my opinion, based on some pictures I had/have. I am aware of the fact that pictures are not hard proof though.

[Richard P]

Kurt,

Here are scans of 4 pages out of an old book. I have the physical copies and they are as bad as the scans. They were copies made in the day when all Xerox machines made copies like this. Here they are for what you can glean out of them.

Richard

[Richard P]

2.

[Richard P]

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[Richard P]

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[Rick C]

A sidebar to the subject of Kurt’s thread I’m most interested in the ‘run-up’ to the regulation change of 1944 which specified specific branch waffenfarbe for use by non-combat or ‘Specialist Careers’General officers. This thread as well as another recent thread (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=623088) by Kurt mentions these regulations in the context of his recent waffenfarbed greatcoat acquisition. He relates therein:

“On April 25th, 1944, Adolf Hitler demanded that Generals of the Medical, Veterinarian, Kraftfahr- and Waffenoffizier (Field Equipment Inspector) Corps change their collar tabs, shoulder boards and labels on their great coats to their branch color to distinguish them from regular "fighting" Generals (Truppengenerale). ” Mike’s ‘Marshal’s Baton’ site also mentions the 44 regulation as does Wiki which was to establish the use of certain colors (Waffenfarben) to signify branch of service in collar tabs and boards from the previously universal Hochrot to delineate combat arms General from support services Generals.

From what I’ve been told, the new colored tabs were to include Medical - cornflower blue, Veterinary - crimson, Ordnance Services - orange red, Motor Park Troops - pink and Special Service Truppensonderdienst - light blue. These new colored General’s tabs were to join the already non-Hochrot colored tabs of the Generals Wehrmachtbeamte, Generals of Military Administration Officials, Police - green and Bahnschutz police - black. I would like to learn more on this subject and am hoping that some members may have more detail they might share regarding this subject.

The final ‘44 regulations were published but what about the run up to the regulations? As with all changes relating to uniforms and new awards there was a ’process’ of informing manufacturers of anticipated changes. In the present case, the new tab color regulations would’ve required the industry to be informed of the coming changes, patterns submitted/approved, samples solicited and after which the finalized regulations were adopted.

My interest is, were there other branches or service groups (beyond those finalized in the regulations) considered for their own branch color designation? I had heard somewhere that even panzer Generals were to have specific colored tabs even though they were Combat Generals rather than ‘Specialty Careers’.

Who can share further background information on these tab color changes and does anyone have examples they might share of these unique General’s tabs or shoulderboards?

[germanpolice]

As an interest, the fire police was also to have specific colour change to crimson of the SS general pattern, is this off subject. Polizei pictures posted because its not listed, Police generals 1st type collar patches and boards.

[Kurt]

(...)

My interest is, were there other branches or service groups (beyond those finalized in the regulations) considered for their own branch color designation? (...)

Rick,

nice to see this topic brought back up ... I believe that those Generals who received the honor of becoming a Regimentschef did have insignia in their branch color. There were only six of these in the Wehrmacht:

- Generaloberst von Rundstedt (Infanterie)
- Eduard von Böhm-Ermolli (Infanterie)
- Generaloberst von Fritsch (Artillerie -- he keept his branch color )
- Generalfeldmarschall von Mackensen (who never wore a WWII uniform to my knowledge)
- General der Infanterie Ritter von Epp (Infanterie)
- Generaloberst von Seeckt (Infanterie)

As far as I know, these Generals in the uniform of a Regimentschef still wore the regular officer's collar tabs but with General's shoulder boards. The most famous example being von Rundstedt. Studying period pics, you'll find such images of these three Infanterie Regimentschef uniforms (von Rundstedt, Ritter von Epp & von Seeckt). Generaloberst von Fritsch was killed right after he was made a Regimentschef so I didn't find an image of him in such a uniform and I'd say that's also the reason there are none of Eduard von Böhm-Ermolli as he didn't really live that long after receiving this honor.

-----------------------------
Here is one example I have not found in the regulations but that clearly existed.

Here is a period photo of Franz Xaver Hasenöhrl. He is wearing collar tabs on light grey with dark green Nebenfarbe (so for the duration of the war). He was Kriegsverwaltungsvizechef and Ministerialrat z.V. in the Wirtschaftsstab Ost.

[Rick C]

So Kurt, grey backed (waffenfarbe) General's tabs with green piping (nebenfarbe)... certainly a one of a kind General's tab as far as I know.

1. Why would these 'unique' tabs not be mentioned in the regulations?
2. Would these have had any mention in that periodical uniformenmark (spelling) or whatever they called it?
3. Getting back to my question - was any mention of the run-up to the 1944 regulation made relating to the various General's tab colors that were under consideration in the aforementioned industry periodical?

RC

[Johnny R]

The tabs in the image are rare but not unique-the general posted is wearing regulation insignia for a Generalmajor who is a wartime military administration official. Gold embroidery on grey with dark green nebenfarbe. If you look carefully you will see the silver eagles on his shoulder boards for wartime military officials. His breast eagle is in the same grey backing material which is also within regulations but most uniforms will have a typical bullion eagle on dark green.

I have never heard of or seen regulations made after the 1944 ones posted above.

There also were more General officers who were Colonel in chief of regiments- 28 in 1938 and in 1944 only 26.

The major difference for them and regular uniforms was as far as I know aside from personal choices for field grade tabs etc. usually the wearing of regimental numbers on Generals shoulderboards and the underlay of the boards in the waffenfarbe of the regiment's branch.

I have never seen Generals tabs in branch colors aside from the branches outlined in the above 1944 regulations.