Thoughts on this White HBT PZ Wrap Tunic and Pants

[derka]

hello,

no need to show pic to just answer my question...

derka

[Napalm]

I don't have a dog in this race but thats rude dude...Maybe your english is poor but still no excuse...

[Luca Ongaro]

Luca,
is there zigzag stiching under the colar of your white wrap ?
derka

Sorry for delay in my back answer Derka.
The answer is yes and this is the reason IMHO why zig zag stitching under the back of the collar on HBT/denim wraps is acceptable on original wraps.
For those are sceptics, I have full confidence that in the next years HBT/Denim wraps with zig zag stitching will be the accepted "textbook" standard.


We have talked about many times, here two interesting thread :

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...2611&highlight

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...9517&highlight


P.S. My dog is not running in this race, this is my honest opinion.

[derka]

re,

thanks Luca, your opinion is logical.
no matter what i think if you are happy with it.
i sincerely hope i'm wrong on this point.
but we all agree to disagree sometimes, not a problem between gentlemen.

regards
Chris "derka"

[djpool]

[quote=Luca Ongaro;3106903]
The answer is yes and this is the reason IMHO why zig zag stitching under the back of the collar on HBT/denim wraps is acceptable on original wraps.
For those are sceptics, I have full confidence that in the next years HBT/Denim wraps with zig zag stitching will be the accepted "textbook" standard.

The French and Estonian members of the Fourth Reich support this message.WR Jim

[Luca Ongaro]

The French and Estonian members of the Fourth Reich support this message.WR Jim

Sure Jim, all fakers in the world are looking for original details, this is my opinion based on my experience and the story of this jacket, I am 100% sure about this statment.
You are right, fourth reich is coming and always with best goodies.
Luca

[Richard P]

I have to agree fully with Luca, I believe as many older collectors pass their collections on through sales or estates, I think we will see other fine original examples of various HBT wraps with zig zag stitching behind the collar.

Who can forget the second thread link that Luca refers to in post #33. I believe so strongly in the originality of the wrap that started the thread, that I put my money where my mouth is..I own it now.

Here is another thread on white panzer sets by Jack Melvin. LINK: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...te+panzer+sets

In it, even good old Wade K (panzer) admits the zig zag stitch is there for a reason in post #23.

QUOTE: "Hi Fellas,
OK....I cannot answer for the other HBT tunics (the rules are different for 4 pocket tunics of all kinds), but generally they DO have some sort of internal bias material, that is why the zig-zag sewing is there, to hold it in place and not as some kind of hidden decoration....it has this purpose." Wade K

The ONLY reason any original HBT wrap has zig zag behind the collar is because it has bias material in the collar.

The ONLY reason the rest of the HBT wrappers don't, is because they don't have bias material in the collar.

Bill Shea sold another HBT wrap about 2 years ago just like the one I have, but with the collar tabs removed, only it has a depot stamp and 44 date in it. I have photos, but have been unable to locate any that I can post so far.

I WILL HAVE IT AT THE SOS SO THAT ANYONE CAN SEE IT IN PERSON, AND THEN RENDER AN HONEST OPINION.

Richard

[djpool]

re,

green hbt or denim pz suits are pretty rare.
but compare to them, white ones are almost like Moby Dick among others whales...
so comparizon is difficult, but logicaly, there are no reasons to believe that white suits were manufactured in a different way than green suits, hence same carateristics should be found.
just my 2 cents.
derka

Derka,

Absolutely correct. I have examined three of the Mouse grey wraps and two grey green wraps. The Mouse Grey and one grey green denim wrap date before 1996/97 before the flood of fakes deluged the market. One grey green wrap just surfaced directly from the vets family. All of these wraps lack zig zag stiching and are stamped in a different location (same as original green Hbt wraps). All of these wraps appear to be manufactured by the same firm and issued from the same depot. Incidently the same manufacturer made the standard green HBT wraps. So I don't believe that there were a lot of manufacturers involved in making the non standard colored wraps. Prior to the arrival of the fakes I saw one white wrap being offered by a well known crook in Germany. Other than that I never even heard of anyone seeing a white wrap.

After 96/97 there was a flood of HBT wraps with zig zag stitching under the collar and stamps incorrectly placed. An of course they were offered in almost every color and material you can think of.

If I was to believe all these white ones were original then I guess they are more common then I thought. Just on this one thread we have an Army, SS and a reference to a LW one! Plus I've seen dozens on other sites, manions etc. Funny thing is no two are stamped the same. They must have cranked out millions of them by the number of different factories involved in making them.

WR Jim

[Lombardi]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=191091

don't forget this thread

[corporalSteiner]

imo complete fake. hbt weave just like modern copies of hbt tunics as sold by german repro suppliers...no contest. an inventive decision to make an obscure garment from easily obtainable undyed modern hbt.

[Richard P]

I will have this wrap at the SOS.

Every advanced collector who has seen it in person at least agrees that it is made of genuine WWII German HBT.

It should be interesting.

[Luca Ongaro]

I will have this wrap at the SOS.

Richard, I hope you will have mine next year.
Let me know thoughts from the SOS.
Talk you soon.
Luca

[Lombardi]

for me, the most telling photos of a "standard" (due to its rarity "standard" so to speak) white HBT donned by a front line Pz soldier is in Wade's Pz uniform book:

-note the 1st pattern jacket, that seems cut unlike the standard green HBT or denim pattern... the cut is snug and in proportion and style more similar to a wool Pz wrao Sd.Bekl., torusers are more similar to green HBT or denim 2nd pattern.

-and as noted by Ongaro's, its small size (particularly the jacket is cut short and snug fitting)

As a personal note, my white HBT set, that moved so much controversy (but not in MPs, I received several asking me to sell it), bought by me in 1997-98, and in a previous collection several years before that, so many years before that Barfigo's photos were edited is very, very similar to my set (cut, proportions, and... 1st pattern jacket, 2nd trousers!).

But please see the photos...

[djpool]

The big problem with Black and white photos is you can't get a true sense of the color. This set may be (AND PROBABLY IS) the standard Mouse grey set. If you check this thread you'll see a Mouse grey jacket from Mike Davis. Even in color it looks white.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...se+grey&page=9

The mouse grey sets I've checked all lok white after they are faded a bit. They were made in the 1st and 2d pattern.

Here is a link to a first pattern wrap owned by Bob Edwards:

http://www.battlebornbooks.com/Bobs_pages/MG.htm

WR Jim

for me, the most telling photos of a "standard" (due to its rarity "standard" so to speak) white HBT donned by a front line Pz soldier is in Wade's Pz uniform book:

-note the 1st pattern jacket, that seems cut unlike the standard green HBT or denim pattern... the cut is snug and in proportion and style more similar to a wool Pz wrao Sd.Bekl., torusers are more similar to green HBT or denim 2nd pattern.

-and as noted by Ongaro's, its small size (particularly the jacket is cut short and snug fitting)

As a personal note, my white HBT set, that moved so much controversy (but not in MPs, I received several asking me to sell it), bought by me in 1997-98, and in a previous collection several years before that, so many years before that Barfigo's photos were edited is very, very similar to my set (cut, proportions, and... 1st pattern jacket, 2nd trousers!).

But please see the photos...

[Lombardi]

to me, it appears:

1-Barfigo's set is white and definitely not denim
2-just check the relative stiffness of denim cloth in Bob's demim wrap: used HBT is less stiff

I like that this and other threads have helped re-discuss the collar reverse stitching dogma as well.