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**CSP** · 10-23-2003, 06:00 PM

There are far more informed people than me and maybe they will comment. First, I recall that von Kleist's uniforms, etc. popped up on the market years ago...maybe 25 years. I'll even throw one out there based on foggy memory alone that Mohawk Arms once handled what was purported to be his stuff. Back in those days, a firm like Mohawk Arms was not unlike a Southeby's, etc regarding militaria, so I tend to believe that what Ray Zayla offered - if in fact my recollection is correct regarding von Kleist - was authentic. I know for certain he auctioned a KC that still pops up in the collector worls and is pictured in at least one book that was awarded to a Stuka pilot. But I am digressing...

Manion's has never had that reputation. It is in the realm of possibility that they could aquire such a thing. I just tend not to believe it....but I have not even studied the few photos you link us to. Things of such rare and unique historical significance are usuallly not handled this way. They either travel in private channels or I would expect some fanfare from a firm such as Southeby's to be heard - with at least a hint of provenance. Manion's listing says nothing of provenance on this stuff. Their track record on German militaria is abysmal (yes - even a blind squirrl finds an acorn now and then) in my opinion and they are handling this grouping more like a garage sale than a unique historical item auction. In short - it is too good to be true. And I am not even commenting on the points of authenticity of the uniform itself, regardless of the name associated with it.

I might be dead wrong.

**TJ Suter** · 10-23-2003, 06:00 PM

One thing that bothers me about this tunic is the collar tabs. Those are 1941 pattern GFM collar tabs and the tunic is dated 25 Feb 1943 (one month after he was promoted). It may well be okay, but I'd like to see a period photograph of the GFM wearing 1941 pattern collar tabs.

He could have provided some better/more photographs too.

You going to bid on it?

**Dave Suter** · 10-23-2003, 07:29 PM

First, let me say that if Manion's were an airline, I'd Go Greyhound.

I'm not sure about this set. The insignia looks original to the period, but I too am suspicious that he would have had a tunic made in 1943 and not used the correct GFM collar tabs introduced in 1941. In addition, those labels look a bit too freshly sewn. Perhaps it is just the photos. And speaking of photos, for something that costs that much the photographic presentation is rather sparse.

If I were serious about this set I'd make damn sure that the labels & batons weren't just added to a Generalmajor outfit. Only way to be sure is to examine it in person. But then again, there is that famous Manion's 'guarantee'.......

**ErikR** · 10-23-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by PD Sergeant

One thing that bothers me about this tunic is the collar tabs. Those are 1941 pattern GFM collar tabs and the tunic is dated 25 Feb 1943 (one month after he was promoted). It may well be okay, but I'd like to see a period photograph of the GFM wearing 1941 pattern collar tabs.

He could have provided some better/more photographs too.

You going to bid on it?

Not at all. I have only been collecting for several years. The most important message that has been passed on to me (by all of you as mentors

) is if it is to good to be true - it probably is. I heed every word that Scott and many other members of this forum download consistantly. I only purchase from two or three places - all highly regarded and expensive - but safe.

I yearn for a generals tunic to showcase my collection, but I will wait until the right moment, I also have the patience of Job.........for now.

I still highly regard any comments on these situations in order to learn. I appreciate any feedback; and Scott I may seem repititious with these items, but your experience and insight is hitting home - thanks guys.

erik

**ErikR** · 10-23-2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Dave Suter (Sarge)

First, let me say that if Manion's were an airline, I'd Go Greyhound.

I'm not sure about this set. The insignia looks original to the period, but I too am suspicious that he would have had a tunic made in 1943 and not used the correct GFM collar tabs introduced in 1941. In addition, those labels look a bit too freshly sewn. Perhaps it is just the photos. And speaking of photos, for something that costs that much the photographic presentation is rather sparse.

If I were serious about this set I'd make damn sure that the labels & batons weren't just added to a Generalmajor outfit. Only way to be sure is to examine it in person. But then again, there is that famous Manion's 'guarantee'.......

Thank you Sarge

**CSP** · 10-23-2003, 08:13 PM

Patience in this hobby is in direct proportion to aquiring good, valuable, and admirable pieces in your collection.

I cannot over emphasize the effort the forgers make to decieve.

While I truely appreciate the kindness of your comments toward me...and I appreciate and enjoy the learning that this Forum provides all of us...think of it this way: If you do not know enough on your own and have to ask questions here...then you probably have not learned enough yet to buy what you want.

Use your patience to research - it is more often a case of "would I buy that" than "I want to buy that".

**ErikR** · 10-23-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by ScottPritchett

Patience in this hobby is in direct proportion to aquiring good, valuable, and admirable pieces in your collection.

I cannot over emphasize the effort the forgers make to decieve.

While I truely appreciate the kindness of your comments toward me...and I appreciate and enjoy the learning that this Forum provides all of us...think of it this way: If you do not know enough on your own and have to ask questions here...then you probably have not learned enough yet to buy what you want.

Use your patience to research - it is more often a case of "would I buy that" than "I want to buy that".

Very true - now that is a remarkable statement !! I like it.

I find it is the last 10% of the detail that I question my experience / gut feelings on. That is why I feel fortunate to have found this seasoned forum.

It's those damned fakes / reproductions. Some are so good. They seem to crop up everywhere. Even the disscussion over the last week or two regarding the S&L KC's - prime example. Tiger quoted "Provenance, while it is desirable is not always possible. Sometimes even the provenace from the original recipient is flawed." AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

This KC thread has thrown me. The layering of the story, the shady deals, the expertise or the reproduction 'artists', Dietlev dismissing it, yet the power of the doubt.....Are my reference books accurate - sometimes I throw my hands up in the air and snort cayenne.

I doubted the tailor tags, yet missed the style of collar tabs. I feel as though I have a fairly good reference library to date, but I always miss one detail - whether obvious or very small. Each time I post or visit these forums, I learn something new.

Where am I going with this - I do not know - all I can say is thanks for your feedback guys

erik

**Denis** · 10-24-2003, 03:08 AM

Hello
I remember that not so long ago, Peter Whamond (the Collector Guild) had a GFM uniform to sell. I don't remind if it was von Kleist's one though.
Regards
Denis

**ErikR** · 10-24-2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Denis

Hello
I remember that not so long ago, Peter Whamond (the Collector Guild) had a GFM uniform to sell. I don't remind if it was von Kleist's one though.
Regards
Denis

I almost purchased it - the uniform belonged to Von Manstein. That collection was beautifull. Any comments on Von Mansteins uniform for sale a year ago with Peter? Does anyone remember the details?

Was $40K US a reasonable price - considering a reputable dealer and the provenance factor?

erik

**Ian Hulley** · 10-24-2003, 08:51 AM

I know nothing of this particular ensemble but what I do know is that the identical style of tailors label is turning up a lot at the moment...look also at the 'SS-VT' tunic also on Manions and also see the 'Daluege' thread over on the SS uniform forum of "the other place" which was on Hermann Historica. Someone in my opinion is working their way through the DAL and producing matching high yield uniforms. I believe Caveat Emptor is the best applicable phrase here.

Best regards,
Ian Hulley

**trotlin13** · 10-24-2003, 09:27 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with Scott. Manions is a preversion in the collecting community. I would be very suspect of any historical grouping such as this that did not come with impeccable, ironclad provenance. Rest assured, Manions will provide none with this lot which is absurd considering the historical significance of von Kleist. Manions has now handled the sale of Hausser and Von kleists' respective tunics in less than a month. Highly unlikely!! Coincidentally, Manions has no provenance on either. Manions is a scrouge, and something needs to be done about their business practices, Im just not sure what. Respectfully,

Dylan

**DonC** · 10-24-2003, 10:49 AM

It would take a lot of digging, but I would imagine for such high-profile personalities it would be possible to see if their uiforms were even tailored by Holters, which was oneof the big-time clothiers in the TR. The German records archive or another source may have their records.

Don

**Dave Kane** · 10-24-2003, 11:30 AM

The cap is a complete FRAUD! The ERel label is completely wrong and coupled with the "Holter's" tag just makes the entire grouping laughable.
Dave

**ErikR** · 10-24-2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by DonC

It would take a lot of digging, but I would imagine for such high-profile personalities it would be possible to see if their uiforms were even tailored by Holters, which was oneof the big-time clothiers in the TR. The German records archive or another source may have their records.

Don

I guess this is my point to the thread. I read / research as much as I can considering that 10 hours a day of my time is working to feed my family. I have been building my library and collection over the last six years. There is no substitute for true life touchy feelly and the experience of time. But we 'green' collectors still have to learn by experience.

I have to rely somewhat on the dealers reputation. I buy without much fear from Detlev, the collectors guild and some notable others. I expect these professional dealers to have internal policing on the authenticity of the goods being sold. But then in these forums we have incredible conversations eg: S&L KC's from Delev which simply blow my mind. Then I wonder if there are any authentic pieces outside of private collections.

I guess I can sum up with - these are the perils in the world of collecting TR material. I cannot wait for another decade or so to have the true life experience
in order to feel confident about my purchases. I also do not want to look back and see that I dropped a 100K on reproductions

But Scott is right, and wise and we all need to learn by experience and hard work - research, research, research - I am realyy happy that I have found this forum - thats all I can say !!!

erik

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Generalfeldmarschall Uniform, Named To Gfm Ewald Von Kleist

Generalfeldmarschall Uniform, Named To Gfm Ewald Von Kleist

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