keyholes

[wewelsburg]

submitting this here too
I have a question on keyholes,someone needs to explain these thay are a neglected thing in collecting,i for one havent really grasped it yet.i know there is something called cut-before and cut-after?I know the Germans used mostly one of them,cant say for sure which, someone please explain what this is all about ive included some photos of good keyholes for examples can someone point out the differences between the 2 types and which type were used on what.And any "bad examples" talked about too.

[Lenny W]

try this ;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=328796

[wewelsburg]

so above are cut before?

[wewelsburg]

shot of inside

[Renaud]

so above are cut before?

Yes

But I have a fake einheitsfeldmütze 43 which have cut-before keyholes, so it is not a proof for authenticity.

[wewelsburg]

im just trying to shoe examples.

[wewelsburg]

i mean show not shoe oops!

[Johnny R]

Buttonholes are dealt with in many threads on the forum and in a couple references. If you do a search you will find detailed descriptions. The link Lenny provided is one of the best and most recent threads. All of them are being copied, some types were not used during the War and provide smoking guns but there was a great deal of variability during the War as well. The entire tunic needs to be looked at not just the holes.

[wewelsburg]

i wasnt asking for validity i was just wondering about how they are made.

[Scott A. Hess]

Buttonholes are dealt with in many threads on the forum and in a couple references. If you do a search you will find detailed descriptions. The link Lenny provided is one of the best and most recent threads. All of them are being copied, some types were not used during the War and provide smoking guns but there was a great deal of variability during the War as well. The entire tunic needs to be looked at not just the holes.

Great thread,I agree that there is no 100 percent tell tale rule to this. I can say Most Jankes I have seen use the but after. However, at the front (reenactors) do use Reece machines and have done so for quite some time, and I have seen them with the "cut before" look. Having studied my tunics over the ages, the majority DO appear to be Cut before, that being said, I have 100 percent one looker tunics, both luft and early M40's which appear to be 'cut after', however, caveat, there is a bit if difference even at times between the button holes on the same tunic, thus, sometimes it can be hard to tell. Im also not sure if (as I suspect) some holes which appear to be cut after are actually cut before holes where the machines were not correctly calibrated, as the tunics are no question authentic, however, there appears at times to be "misses", hard to explain, but I can imagine it had to do with either operator error, machine calibration, or both. As Jhodgson states and I do agree, you really need to look at the tunic not just in its individual details but as a whole,however, as they say the devil is in the details and non conformity of enough will point towards repro; there are a lot of things to study , cloth, construction, hardware, etc etc, and with the millions of tunics being made throughtout the war in germany and occupied territories the end product also was a result of the skill (or lack thereof) of the workers and the quality/sophistication of the machines being used, also factoring in the decling conditions under which the items were being produced during later years/months/bombings, etc. That having been said, Ive seensome of the highest quality luft items made during the last months of the war, and lesser quality Heer tunics made during earlier stages, so you can really not rely on the keyhole construction as a 100 percent deal breaker, unless its of the fashion that simply was not done period during the war.

[phild]

Great thread,I agree that there is no 100 percent tell tale rule to this. I can say Most Jankes I have seen use the but after. However, at the front (reenactors) do use Reece machines and have done so for quite some time, and I have seen them with the "cut before" look. Having studied my tunics over the ages, the majority DO appear to be Cut before, that being said, I have 100 percent one looker tunics, both luft and early M40's which appear to be 'cut after', however, caveat, there is a bit if difference even at times between the button holes on the same tunic, thus, sometimes it can be hard to tell. Im also not sure if (as I suspect) some holes which appear to be cut after are actually cut before holes where the machines were not correctly calibrated, as the tunics are no question authentic, however, there appears at times to be "misses", hard to explain, but I can imagine it had to do with either operator error, machine calibration, or both.

I agree and as John implied that are a LOT of period button holes that were not even made in the key hole style. Most are found on items like shirts and some shoulder boards and most non tailor or non big factory made items. It can be very weak at best to judge an item based just on the type of button hole found IMO.

[Scott A. Hess]

I agree and as John implied that are a LOT of period button holes that were not even made in the key hole style. Most are found on items like shirts and some shoulder boards and most non tailor or non big factory made items. It can be very weak at best to judge an item based just on the type of button hole found IMO.

Agree, factor into this also a large majority of the SS made tunics, particularly your hbt items, made in the camps that lacked the Reece machines where the button holes were simply done with a foot attachment and then cut open by hand with scissors. Those items contracted out by the SS (or made by SS as in wool tunics where better equipment was available) appear to show higher quality of details and use of Reece machines, so, its really of who did the work, where, when, and what was available.