HG M44, need you help please

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi

Please excuse my ignorance but How do you know that the tunic is from HG division and not from another Luftwaffe field detachment.

Juan

Hi Juan, the special white collar tabs were only worn by the "Herrman Goring" Division.
Cheers, Ade.

[Willi Z.]

Well guys, then what is this tunic? Where is the straight line stitching on the inside of the tunic where a Heer trapezoid would have been? You can't hide such a stitch with a zig-zag. Where is the evidence of Heer late-war M44 style collar tabs (litzen, or whatever) if they were removed? Why would someone make a bad Luft trapezoid eagle in fieldgray wool to put on a tunic? To fool us all? With the collar tabs? With TEXTBOOK Luftwaffe style zig-zag stitching? Does this eagle exhibit any of the details on the front of a repro? Are not those shoulder boards Luftwaffe style with that tress? Note the Lufwaffe style NCO tress pattern (clearly different than Heer NCO tress) on tress that is fieldgray. Did someone make that up to? What uniform, if not this one, would they have gone on? As for the order to remove collar tabs...on what tunics? Wool tunics? Sure Luftwaffe uniforms in tropical cottons, or later-war cottons, or HBTs in bluegray and fieldgray, didn't have collar tabs. Were orders followed to remove helmet decals? What wool Luftwaffe uniforms DIDN'T have collar tabs? Are you guys also saying the the Luftwaffe didn't have fieldgray M43 tunics with collar tabs and standard cut eagles on fieldgray? I hear lots of "it can't be real" without addressing any of these issues. M44 tunics come in all shades of wool........from a more brown to a more green to a more gray. As for Luft Panzer and assault gun wraps, didn't the Luftwaffe use standard Heer stock? Same goes for the late-war M43 tunics.

Was there not a time when we would have never believed that the last issue of FJ smocks would have had a trapezoid eagle on them?

There is much we don't know about late-war Luftwaffe uniforms. Can you guys say you have seen it all? Sorry for how the tone of all of this might sound, but it is also a matter of presenting what this tunic is, rather than just saying it is not what it appears. As I regret very badly passing the last one of these to a friend of mine, please forward the contact and the price via PM.

Willi

[TSkagen]

Dear forum members,

I think Willi makes some very important points.

I have close to 20 years (peace time) experience form the home guard in Norway, and even in a small country like Norway with a mall army and few producers of uniforms, the variation is huge in colour, in the way insignia is attached etc. During war time, regulations and practise is far from each other. I do collect WW2 Royal Norwegian Air Force uniforms as well. On talking with veterans, both pilots and ground crew, uniforms and regulation weren’t the first thing that came to their mind during fighting. I have ww2 colour photos of RNoAF ground crew wearing a mix of Army and RAF battle dresses. With or without insignia i.e. Norway logo and flag.

We are all aware of the WW2 German uniform regulations since they are quite well documented, and with regards to HG units we all have seen photos of the fliegerblüse with no collar tabs, the gulls directly attached to the collar or HG panzer and assault gun units with the scull directly attached to their black or field grey panzer wrap. This is not the definite statement that producers or the wearer did stick to the order to have the white collar tabs removed all through the organisation. I would believe that front units where quicker on removing the gleaming white collar patches since they made a great target for snipers etc.

I have asked the dealer to send the tunic to me for further inspection.

With regards to no sign of former army insignia on this tunic, un-issued army M44 tunics without any insignia are available.

My biggest concern though is the collar tabs, since they don’t match any thing in my collection or any documentation I have. An important note from Willi is that if this tunic is a thumbs down, then why haven’t we seen any other "fake" tunics with the same type of shoulder boards, eagle etc? HG collar tabs in the “correct” pattern are quite common and available, the same goes for luft eagles with blue/grey or field grey backing.

I will let you know more when I have it hands on.

Thank you for sharing your experience !

[TSkagen]

Hi Guys,

A promised, I would come back to you when a had the tunic hands on.

After inspecting the tunic and making all the basic tests I start getting a feeling that the whole tunic might be genuine.
The concern is still the collar tabs and the unknown material they are made of.

Well, I did mention in a PM to Willi that I thought I remembered seeing a similar type material used on a very heavily worn/moth/mouse eaten and late war Fliegerbluse with yellow collar tabs.
If I only could remember where?

After contacting collector friends in Norway, I managed to trace the tunic,( or what was left of it). The owner had removed all the insignia, and made a scan of the collar tabs. My memory was quite good. The material is not 100% identical, but is of a very similar pattern. They have cardboard inlay instead of buckram.

What do you think?

[TSkagen]

The HG tab as well

[TSkagen]

.....I feel a bit on my own now.....

Ok, we have also discussed different shades of colour. Here is my LW M43 field grey cap and the HG tunic. You can clearly see the difference

[Willi Z.]

Very nice TSkagen!

Those shoulder boards, with Luftwaffe NCO tress in field gray, are an exceptional find by themselves. I realize the tabs look odd to many, but I think we have to keep an open mind with extremely late-war Luftwaffe stuff, there is much we do not know for sure.

Willi

[Bill V]

M44

Hello;very nice M44 but isnt the trapezoid insignia sewen too high,if factory stiched wasn't regulation to sew it lower on the pocket to avoid the open collar. Bill V

[TSkagen]

Hello;very nice M44 but isnt the trapezoid insignia sewen too high,if factory stiched wasn't regulation to sew it lower on the pocket to avoid the open collar. Bill V

Hi Bill,

The positioning of the trapezoid eagle does not concern me, since there is no option to move it downwards onto the pocket flap as long as it is zig zag'ed by machine to the tunic. Remember the M44 is designed to be worn with closed or open collar. Some panzer wraps does also have this feature were the collar cover parts of the eagle. The picture below is more straight ahead and you will see that it is very little covered by the open collar.

[kmh]

Hi

Not that expierenced into all this but anyhow. The HG colour of Arms or (Waffenfarbe) was white like yellow was the colour for flieger, pilots and airman.
And so on.

Regards
Kim

[Dave Suter]

This is a tough one! Without regard to the regulations, the ONLY thing I see odd is, like all of us, the material used for the collar tabs. However, late war did tend to bring out even more variations in materials used. Willi's points make sense to me.

My gun-to-the-head decision goes to authentic.

[Gene]

My gut reaction, for what it's worth, is that this piece is not genuine WW2 in origin.

[Hasse.M]

Only one question:
Isent the shoulderboards oversized?. Is there any markings/old buttonhole or something that indicates that the board-button has been moved?

My guess goes to an original (text book) heer tunic. With postwar added insignias.

Very interesting thread!
Best regards

[TSkagen]

Hi Gentlepeople,

I have been away for a while. Maybe I should try to wrap it up….
1. The eagle has no signs of being a repro when looking at the front. It is Zig-Zagged to the tunic in typical LW fashion.
2. The shoulder boards have the correct NCO LW tress pattern in a very rare field grey.
o A comment to Hasse, The shoulder boards is within “normal” size when compared to other LW slip on boards I have and no sign of buttons being moved.
3. The collar tabs have been the major concern for many of us. The material is not known, but I managed to “dig up” another tab made of very similar material. No one could say for sure it is a repro. If tabs are post war applied, why not use a common HG tab in felt?
4. Field Grey M44’s are known to be used by LW as well as LW blue-grey.

The experts are more or less split in 50/50 authentic, not authentic


As I said earlier in this tread, I liked the hands on experience, so the tunic belongs to me now . The dealer was made aware of the comments in this forum before we settled the deal. …..until someone comes up with hard evidence I will treat it as “most probably authentic” and display it with my other uniforms.

Thank you for all your comments!

Please contact me if any new information arises.