How many times can this change hands?

[NTZ]

Ok I have watched this GROSSDEUTSCHLAND white summer set fly all over the world. I think the first dealer to have it was Peter Jenkins. It has since been on at least three other sites maybe more. I thought it was an interesting set but what is wrong with it and why has it been put through a shell game of dealers? Curious minds need to know.



http://www.gdmmilitaria.com/

[Greg Domian]

I agree, If that was my tunic i would not be moving it. Unless there is something wrong with it or it's haunted.

Greg

[GD/LW]

Don't have a clue. Looking at it, it seems all OK to me.

[DonC]

Two thoughts, and I would be happy to be educated otherwise:

1) White trousers were never prescribed for the Heer summer tunic, only the Luftwaffe.

2) I can't think of any evidence that the cuff title was prescribed to be worn on the summer tunic - only the shoulderboard cyphers.

Obviuusly regs were flouted every day, so you can never say never, but when we're talking that kind of scratch, with out ironclad provenance I suspect that people get nervous if money gets tight and bang, out on the market it goes.

Don

[Johnny R]

I agree with Don, GD had different uniforms than regular Army and also used experimental combinations but I do not recall white trousers or shoes, it might have been a trial uniform etc. but? The Sommerrock was to be worn with piped trousers, unpiped striaght leg trousers, riding breeches, or red, white, and black swastika pattern Bermuda shorts. I know cuff titles were worn but not sure if they were regulation.

[GD/LW]

I agree. Don't know if CT worn on summer tunics was regulation but I do know that I've seen photographic evidence of it. Can lay my hands at it for the moment, but as soon as I have it I'll show it.
Perhaps has Scott some evidence of it ?

[Scott C.]

... or red, white, and black swastika pattern Bermuda shorts.

Wow - I'll bet those are rare...

[Johnny R]

Wow - I'll bet those are rare...

Right up there with Waffen-SS Pastry Chef Aprons in Oakleaf B


Seriously, I would like to hear the story, anything is possible with GD, it could have been some prototype etc. or is totally put together. Interesting set.

[phild]

I had the same concerns that were stated in the all of the above posts, in addition I feel that this officer (given his rank and the fact that the cufftitle is waritme) would not have purchased this old style summer white tunic...but rather if he would have owned any example it would have been the New style.

This could have been a hand down or borrowed for one event...

Were button hole ribbons really worn on these? I would think if there ever was a case for the ribbon bar the summer white would be it.

The tunic appears to made of wool...and is slightly mothed to back that up, I think that every Heer summer white tunic that I have seen or at least paid any attention to has been made from a cotton or linnen type material.

I'm saying the set is "bad" but I would love to see a post 39-40 photo of a junior officer wearing an old style with white trousers and shoes.....the GD title would be gravy.

[DonC]

I had handled the tunic personally several years ago...and the cufftitle is a repro. There are other problems with the set, but the cufftitle is enough to discount it altogether. Sorry.

Well, that explains a lot. The only suprising thing is that some one hasn't rerplaced it with an original by now...

Don

[PCJ]

I really feel I must leap to the defence of this quite beautifull and rare ensemble.
First I quote NTZ,

>>Ok I have watched this GROSSDEUTSCHLAND white summer set fly all over the world. I think the first dealer to have it was Peter Jenkins. It has since been on at least three other sites maybe more. I thought it was an interesting set but what is wrong with it and why has it been put through a shell game of dealers? Curious minds need to know.<<



Well Nick, this wonderfull set was in my possesion around 4 years ago. I do not collect Army, so sold it to a friend over here in the UK, who likewise kept it for around 2 years. He needed cash, wanted more than I paid, so I sold it for him on commision. It now resides, as far as I know, in a collection in CA. I hope this will satisfy your intense curiosity, but hardly a globe trotter I think.

Greg,
>>I agree, If that was my tunic i would not be moving it. Unless there is something wrong with it or it's haunted.<<

Knowing you I was somewhat surprised and disappointed by your comment, so, by implication, the wonderfull original SS officer crusher hat you had on the e-stand, which most collectors would die for, had something wrong with it????

Don C
1) White trousers were never prescribed for the Heer summer tunic, only the Luftwaffe.

2) I can't think of any evidence that the cuff title was prescribed to be worn on the summer tunic - only the shoulderboard cyphers.


Don, I do not know you, so please do not be offended, I suggest you buy a copy, of the Heeres Kleiderkasse List, effective 1st October 1936, look at page 7, article 16. Which clearly states the price for White hose material to be worn with the white Summer uniform. (the full regs for the rock can be found in Uniformen Markt 1st August 1937)
Reference the cufftitle, to suggest that a member of the elite GD regiment would be prohibited from wearing his title of honour on any walking out uniform, is, to be quite honest, ridiculous.

Scott,
>>I had handled the tunic personally several years ago...and the cufftitle is a repro. There are other problems with the set, but the cufftitle is enough to discount it altogether. Sorry.<<
Again I do not know you, but, with the greatest of respect, for me the title, is not only originally applied, but is itself original. So we have a difference of opinion.

This is a wonderfull set, possibly made in Paris, of the very highest quality, even the trousers are completely lined in real silk, perfect for a young officer with deep pockets. I find it unbelievable that anyone could find fault with it.


GD/LW, thankyou for your unbiased comments.

Regards,
Peter Jenkins.

[NTZ]

Peter, it was one two different US dealer sites in the last year. That I am 100% sure of. Maybe it has been on consignment I don’t know. I just thought that it looked like a nice one of a kind set and could not believe is moved around at all.

Nick

[DonC]

Peter, no offense taken, and welcome to the forum. I'd love to see a period picture of white trousers in wear on a Heer uniform - that's one I haven't come across yet. As for the cufftitle, where are the regs for its wear and if it is indeed a repro (as you said, a difference of opinion with Scott, who does seem to be quite well versed in GD items), or even questionable, as I said, that would be a reason for the set to move. I have no doubt that regs were flouted, especially in the "elite" units. I have sold things I wish I had back as well - the original question was why a set like this would move around so much, and my answer was couched in response to that. No offense was meant or implied. I simply gave some scenarios.

Don

[Drew Wright]

I could swear I saw that exact same set on Norbert Graetz' site (N&T Militaria) about 6-8 years ago, as well...

Regards,

Drew

[NTZ]

I was mistaken. I just got a pm from the owner. It was on Peter’s site, Herman’s site and David’s site. The later 2 on consignment.

My reasoning for posting was did I miss something? I thought it was petty neat trousers shoes and all. I just couldn’t understand why it was on different sites so soon. Cleared up now.