LW pilot's jacket for review

[mgschutze]

Hello,

I want to buy this jacket. It's privatemade leather jacket. The shoulderstraps are still on it, and with major rank. The place of the eagle is visible, but has a strange form. Maybe it's a handembroidered one. The place for an spange and for a Pilotsabzeichen are still on the jacket. All the zippers are original on the jacket and working, the same with the buttons. These are all the photo's i have.

And could you give me an price indication if this is an original jacket.

Thank You.

[Gene]

Looks like a postwar motorcycle jacket to me. That attempt at faking a removed breast eagle is terrible. You have to be VERY careful with jackets like these!

[RamJet]

The boards are Major. And I don't like the eagle stitching either.

[Harry]

Personally I don't like any jackets with chequered/tartan lining.

[NickG]

These civilian (motorcycle) jackets are tricky because that is exactly what these are...some are period and possibly LW used, others are post war fabrications of 1940's or 1950's old leather jackets...It is really not possible to pin-point the age and prove the usage. This one obviously has all the signs of prior pilot's use, but when was that alteration done? A lot can happen in 65+ years.... These jackets became very fashionable during the battle of Britain (Abbeville boys) and were procured by pilots privately and locally,so even in France, even with such a tartan lining (obviously not LW issue) and converted for pilot's use (rank, loops etc...added).

So you can find these even with French zippers (like "Eclair" brand). I have a French made one which perfectly matches photographic evidence of period styles (an exact twin) but does that mean its been LW used? I can't prove it either... Mine never had a breast eagle... If these do not come directly from a pilot vet or pilot family and there is no iron provenance, these could be anything and the price that you are willing to pay is what you're comfortable with...(for an old leather jacket). If the price is right, I say go for it and you would have a nice representation of what a pilot's jacket could have looked like early during the war, but you can never ever possitively prove this jacket was ever inside a Messerschmit fighter cockpit...

Mine has a similar liner but pockets and construction is slightly different and mine has that typical buckle-strap closure at the bottom of the waist below the zipper,,,missing on yours (area where you have 2 pebbled buttons, that worries me a little as a pilot would not be bothered to add military buttons in that area...it makes it German looking, so a collector could have done it for that reason)... So I don't know about this one either... You state that the zippers are original, what's the zipper brand?
Zipp? RiRi? Eclair?

Here's another one:
http://cgi.ebay.pl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...2183&indexURL=

and another one:
http://cgi.ebay.pl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...%3D4%26ps%3D41

[NickG]

image

image here in case the auction disappears

[NickG]

the other ebay example

the other ebay example (both German manufactured...at least the zippers are!)
MAJOR must be a popular rank for these!

[mgschutze]

Thank you for your reactions.

I will try too make an appointment. Maybe there is an label inside, Tailor made.
I will follow Nick's reaction. If i feel comftable wiht the price and the jacket. Maybe there is a story and a name that sounds plausible.

Thanks for your help anyway.

Grtz. Jim

[J. Hahn]

I agree with Gene. If you want a jacket that has at least a good chance of being the real deal, this is not it.

[GD/LW]

Let me give you a good advise. These leather jackets are all from the same guy in Berlin. A certain Sebastian. In his previous life he was a leather jacket tailor. He can make those as many as you want. I once bought 5 of these from him through E-Bay, all different types. Until I had him through. Luckily I got rid of them, guess where : yes you're wright : E-Bay !! Stay away from that ****site !!! These leather jackets are no good.

[hs132]

Hello, I also agree with Gene. Im not sure what Nick G. means when he states "this one obvoiusly has all the signs of prior pilot's use". Im also of the belief that Luft pilots had these made and tailored for them personally and were not "bought off the rack". Bill Bourque

[NickG]

Hello, I also agree with Gene. Im not sure what Nick G. means when he states "this one obvoiusly has all the signs of prior pilot's use". Im also of the belief that Luft pilots had these made and tailored for them personally and were not "bought off the rack". Bill Bourque

You did not state my ENTIRE quote Bill...
I wrote:
"This one obviously has all the signs of prior pilot's use, but when was that alteration done? A lot can happen in 65+ years...."
Perhaps I was not clear enough so lets try again....

In other words with the "signs" I meant it has the "APPEARANCE" of having all the tell-tail signs of pilot's use...(breast eagle ghost, medal loops etc..) but when was it done (added)...???
That was my message...You can not prove it....that was my point...so its a gamble! When you consider the purchase of such a (tricky) piece, you are just buying an old leather jacket basically.

BTW the jacket that started this thread has nothing to do with the other examples which I pulled from E-bay auctions. That was merely done to illustrate the various styles, various examples of such privately procured jackets, (off the rack or tailored, both scenarios entirely possible), they differ in style based on pilot's preference (taste), his budget and source...(French "Battle of Britain" period, or German manufactured), but its good to know that those E-bay ones are repros! Scary!

Mine was purchased in the 1980's way before Ebay... I can not post a picture of just the jacket unless I dismantle the entire pilot....and I rather not... but here it is...
another old jacket and yes its also a MAJOR! Amazing coincidence huh!
NickG
PS: re the jacket that started this thread: I do like the wear in the areas where the loops are. You can see where the medal/spange pin rubbed against the leather...but who knows... could very well be artificial (aged) wear... Overall I agree with the other posters...most likely its not what it appears to be...
PPS: If you're in doubt... and this one (that started the thread) is not cheap enough to take the gamble, (I also have some doubts about it) you are certainly better off buying an official pattern LW flight jacket with the RBNr, heater plugs etc...

[hs132]

Hello Nick, thanks for the explanation. I wasnt quite sure what you meant and thought I was missing something. While on occasion there can be signs of in-cockpit wear ie. swimveste wear on the back, stick wear on the sleeve I dont believe all jackets as such were actually worn while flying. I think many were worn while on duty, off duty just for appearances. Not to veer to far off topic, here is a pic showing three pilots wearing their private purchase jackets while resting up against their issued flight jackets. I have a hard time thinking they would wear both while flying. Maybe they did and that would also account for less wear. You have a desirable setup. Best, Bill

[NickG]

Another French made example

Like the one on my mannequin (French made "Abbeville boys" period) the following example (not mine) is also a French made one and is actually an exact TWIN of my mannequin jacket! Note the red arrow. These buckles are always a good sign I think, better than the buttons, as illustrated on the Jacket that started this thread and the Ebay examples which are alleged fakes (repros)...

[NickG]

Liner of the ABOVE example!

The liner of the ABOVE example !!! Yes its plaid alright!
(and matches the liner as shown on my pilot mannequin example).
Don't let these plaid (tartan checkered) liners scare you.
Again these are not military contract jackets!

These leather pull tabs on each side (even with slits = opening) are
also a good sign and allowed the jacket to be worn as snug (tight)
as possible, which figher pilots wanted (2nd skin!)
See also tabs in post 6 and 7(which are allegedly repros...recreations)