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**Willi Z.** · 02-13-2011, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

Hi Willi you posted when I was writing, I agree 100%, the LW one just posted IMO is on modern wool, that forest green and the seam do not add up. Looks like the back seam of a coat etc.

I agree.

**Jon Fish** · 02-13-2011, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

Jon Fish's Eagle-

An issue tunic normally only has a single layer of lining fabric behind the main source of the wool, the one you posted looks like it has modern synthetic "bunting" and three layers of lining material.

Sadly what happens, and what my friend has seen is that overcoats etc. are chopped up and common insignia sewn to them to enhance values. There was a "fad" of collecting "cut off" insignia and it was easily addressed by purveyors of new "originals".

Thanks for the info. I thought the eagle looked good, so maybe though as you say the tunic behind it ??? It did come from a very reliable guy so I would be pretty suprised if it was totally no good.

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 05:35 PM

That looks to me like a main vertical panel seam that would not be found on a tunic above a pocket even if it were altered. IMO it is a back seam from a jacket where the two back panels are joined like this one on a coat I am restoring and removed the collar from. I also think it is a modern post War wool with very high wool content. I do not think it is period done even if the eagle is real.

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DSC_0041.jpg (152.1 KB, 880 views)

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Jon Fish View Post

Thanks for the info. I thought the eagle looked good, so maybe though as you say the tunic behind it ??? It did come from a very reliable guy so I would be pretty suprised if it was totally no good.

Hi, you can do a burn test on the fluffy white stuff "bunting", the triple lining is not period or issue. Sadly you can take a 400 dollar overcoat and unused insignia and turn it into 7500 dollars profit with "cut off" insignia. They have done this also with third pattern tropical tunics to make "DAK" shoulder boards and made 10s of thousands of dollars by cutting up one tunic.

**OSS** · 02-13-2011, 06:28 PM

I'm not entirely convinced the Heer eagle is a fake. While almost certainly not a factory original piece from a "German" tunic, I think it may be from a converted Dutch tunic. Years ago most (if not all) of the "cut offs" were original vet souvenirs at ten to twenty dollars a pop (not worth faking) but as with all TR militaria the prices and collector interest have changed all that.

**101combatvet** · 02-13-2011, 06:44 PM

The last Luft eagle I posted measures 2 7/8", so it would have come off of a M43.... hence the seam. The picture was taken with an Iphone in low light.... added enhancement to the imagine to improve detail. I purchased it in the early 90s' for next to nothing. Negative results with a blacklight.

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by OSS View Post

I'm not entirely convinced the Heer eagle is a fake. While almost certainly not a factory original piece from a "German" tunic, I think it may be from a converted Dutch tunic. Years ago most (if not all) of the "cut offs" were original vet souvenirs at ten to twenty dollars a pop (not worth faking) but as with all TR militaria the prices and collector interest have changed all that.

They use real insignia but sew it on whatever they can find to enhance value. A dutch tunic scenario would work but the materials are a little different and the zig not going through the lining it it were not replaced hard to explain. These are the similar materials used in one of mine.

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DSC_0043.jpg (95.0 KB, 912 views)

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 07:39 PM

Towards the LW eagle and the application, please post an example of a seam like that on an issue tunic. I would love to see that.

**OSS** · 02-13-2011, 07:43 PM

The insignia is generally sewn through the lining on Dutch and Czech tunics; your image of material does look more like Dutch material and you may well be right. I have seen loose leaf binders full of doctored "cut-offs" being offered at shows by unscrupulous european dealers where not one piece is original, so I am not believing most that I see, still there is something I like about this piece but would have to see it in person to be sure.

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 08:00 PM

The Dutch reissues I have and have seen that are modified and know are real have straight sewn eagles not sewn through the lining, that material and the triple layer appears Dutch but I also would want to see it. The LW eagle application to me is on a post war wool and I do not understand the central seam.

Attached Files

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 08:02 PM

Second one. The pocket was modified to appear like a German tunic. Note the similarities between the materials for the cut off and the the lining in this one.

Attached Files

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

Hi, you can do a burn test on the fluffy white stuff "bunting", the triple lining is not period or issue. Sadly you can take a 400 dollar overcoat and unused insignia and turn it into 7500 dollars profit with "cut off" insignia. They have done this also with third pattern tropical tunics to make "DAK" shoulder boards and made 10s of thousands of dollars by cutting up one tunic.

See if the material is synthetic, otherwise it is close to the examples of the Dutch materials. No one knows everything they did. A zig stitch through the lining certainly would be possible. Most the "cut offs" are junk but certainly some are real.

**101combatvet** · 02-13-2011, 09:12 PM

The LW eagle size would not have been on a uniform it would have been used on headgear. If the material is correct it could have been cut from a M43.... the reason for the seam. The cap eagle is 100% in my opinion... can't say that about the material. As far as cut insignia I have seen a few nice pieces over the years that came back with veterans.... some of it was SS.

**Johnny R** · 02-13-2011, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

The LW eagle size would not have been on a uniform it would have been used on headgear. If the material is correct it could have been cut from a M43.... the reason for the seam. The cap eagle is 100% in my opinion... can't say that about the material. As far as cut insignia I have seen a few nice pieces over the years that came back with veterans.... some of it was SS.

I did not think it was a cap eagle, that is another issue and it may very well then be real. M43 to me is a tunic, hats are not even on my radar, I do not even see them unless they are part of a uniform grouping. My comments are void on the seam, now it makes more sense and a panel seem would indeed be in that place on an M43 cap.

**101combatvet** · 02-13-2011, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

I did not think it was a cap eagle, that is another issue and it may very well then be real. M43 to me is a tunic, hats are not even on my radar, I do not even see them unless they are part of a uniform grouping. My comments are void on the seam, now it makes more sense and a panel seem would indeed be in that place on an M43 cap.

No problem...

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