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**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-15-2017, 04:12 AM

Then there is this blue version of the standard Afrika w/palms which is could be original ?

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**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-15-2017, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by 39inf View Post

Thanks Tim, don't worry about the rain, I have an umbrella. I don't have a dime in it.
Came with a fake document that I posted. Again thanks for your input.
Terry

Thanks Terry

As it came with a fake document, that does not support its originallity.

with kind regards
Tim

**jacquesf** · 05-15-2017, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

I believe thats very unlikely. We know the standard Afrika /w palms ct was not seen by any personel until after Afrika had fallen by several months. A bullion version would have only been made after the standard version was issued to personel. This would have to have been in Europe mid '43 at the earliest & not in Afrika. So i think if we will "ever" see any evidence it will be on a Continental tunic not a tropical tunic.

I used to "believe" in these with Matt & others years ago, but switched my opinion after years of searching for any evidence and also after talking to many advanced DAK collectors that do not post on the WAF. Not one of them thought there was any chance for these bullion ct's. There is a very good reason why there are No examples in Dal McGuirk's masterpiece "Rommel' Army in Afrika ? The Kurtz book has a ct with the black thread in the palms which has since been declared a fake from the 70's. No DAK vet has ever said these existed, of those asked directly.

No one had ever seen one before the mid 70's when the black threaded palms first appeared....

Again to be clear, am talking about the bullion version of the standard Afrika ct w/palms. Have seen plenty of black AKCT's & DAK ct's. and also Herr Black or LW dark blue Afrika without palms ct's as well.

This is how I see it as well. J

**afrikasandman** · 05-15-2017, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Tim, have you ever seen a picture of the gothic black Afrika CT?
You say they are original, are you able to support why with a picture?

These bullion CTs must be studied in deep, and there's a reason why I don't show here all what I found in these years. A lot of myths and wrong opinions are around since years and years.
I saw here original pieces dismissed as fakes only why those who dismissed didn't like them, bad cufftitles judged good and a lot of wrong infos.

I am pretty sure I have a pic of a black one in wear, all my stuff is packed up and heading beck to the states. Should have It late July. Matt

**Antonio Scapini** · 05-15-2017, 05:26 AM

Tim: do you think all the CT you posted are good?
BTW, the only Afrika in gothic is the second. All the rest are not gothic or not Afrika. Anyway I know all them.
I asked for a picture of the black gothic Afrika in wear (not a normal black CT). You said it is good, then show us why.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-15-2017, 06:16 AM

Sorry Antonio you are lost in translation, & on a sidetrack. Perhaps you forget this photo ?

& yes all the black ct's are original, the only possible exception is the blue version of Afrika w/palms ?

Do you have of any proof of the standard Afrika w/palms worn in Afrika in bullion version ? Yes or No ?

thanks
Tim

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blackafrika2.jpg (121.6 KB, 159 views)

**Antonio Scapini** · 05-15-2017, 08:11 AM

My question is: why do you say the gothic black CT is original? Can you show us a picture of it in wear?
I don't care if I own one or not, my question is another. You say that gothic is original, then please, show us why.
If the bullion is not original because there are no pictures, so why we should consider the gothic one good?

**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-15-2017, 03:47 PM

Ok now i understand you apologies. Yes your right that version has prooved elusive.

Here is a thread on the DAK black ct belonging to a member of the 33rd Art Regt DAK. And a couple more photos of it in use...not the same though.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...K+black+Afrika

My thoughts at this point are how did the bullion Afrika w/palms evolve ? The standard version was not worn in North Afrika so very likely a bullion version would have been made after the standard version was issued, hence look to Europe not the African theatre ?

Even if photos exist which seems possible the ct will likely look alot more like Mike's fines example in post #7 & 8 then the version with the black thread in the palms.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-16-2017, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by afrikasandman View Post

I am pretty sure I have a pic of a black one in wear, all my stuff is packed up and heading beck to the states. Should have It late July. Matt

Matt there is a photo here on the WAF of a Pz guy wearing the ct on his wrap.
Haven't located it presently...

Gonna have to slow down on hittin the keys though, last post barely makes sense

**afrikasandman** · 05-16-2017, 04:14 AM

I still want an Afrika Luftwaffe gothic script cuff, been on my want list for a while. I did see a nice portrait photo of a guy in black wrapper with black Afrikakorps cuff title several months ago on eBay as well. Matt

**JasonA** · 05-16-2017, 11:52 PM

I think that there are two points of consideration here.

The first is whether or not a bullion version would have been made for an officer or general. I understand that that this would have been worn on a dress and/or continental tunic. The examples shown below - even if one thinks that they are legitimate - would have been theater made. But in my mind, we've seen enough high quality tailoring, craftsmanship, and bullion work among surviving examples to-date. There were enough vain men of senior rank during the period; I've no doubt that there would have been high quality bullion versions made for the small percentage who wanted one.

If you believe that a handful of these pieces were created during the period, the second point of consideration is whether or not you think we'll ever see one. If you disbelieve the possibility of the former, the rest is irrelevant. There really is no right or wrong answer here. That said, I understand why most collectors go to surviving vets as a resource. But to rely on their experience and memory to confirm or refute the existence of what would have been a rare piece like this to begin with is a collector fallacy, in my opinion. The percentage of former service men that collectors have been exposed to vs. the number who served is negligible. Along the same lines, the percentage of items that collectors as an aggregate have seen compared to the total which once existed is equally negligible. There is so much that we will never get exposed to at this point. The upside here is that there are a large number of pieces which are buried in older collections which haven't seen the light of day in decades. So the next five to ten years will be a good time to be a buyer.

The one thing I'd add is that while there are a lot of older collections with amazing stuff, there are just as many (if not more) with lots of garbage. So just because a bunch of older collectors maintain that they've never seen a rare item - or it's never been part of a book - doesn't necessarily mean anything.

J-

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

I believe thats very unlikely. We know the standard Afrika /w palms ct was not seen by any personel until after Afrika had fallen by several months. A bullion version would have only been made after the standard version was issued to personel. This would have to have been in Europe mid '43 at the earliest & not in Afrika. So i think if we will "ever" see any evidence it will be on a Continental tunic not a tropical tunic.

I used to "believe" in these with Matt & others years ago, but switched my opinion after years of searching for any evidence and also after talking to many advanced DAK collectors that do not post on the WAF. Not one of them thought there was any chance for these bullion ct's. There is a very good reason why there are No examples in Dal McGuirk's masterpiece "Rommel' Army in Afrika ? The Kurtz book has a ct with the black thread in the palms which has since been declared a fake from the 70's. No DAK vet has ever said these existed, of those asked directly.

No one had ever seen one before the mid 70's when the black threaded palms first appeared....

Again to be clear, am talking about the bullion version of the standard Afrika ct w/palms. Have seen plenty of black AKCT's & DAK ct's. and also Herr Black or LW dark blue Afrika without palms ct's as well.

**Antonio Scapini** · 05-17-2017, 02:55 AM

Memel medals with Straigh G were considered fakes until 2013 by all the "advanced collectors"; flat back Golden Bandenkampfabzeichen with Black sword were considered a "myth", but proven to be really existed in 2015 by me... And I could go on an on.
Tim, to be honest I never read or saw a very deep analysys on cufftitles subject, but only a lot of "I heard" and a lot of personal opinions without any decent proof.

I'm happy you are so sure about the bullion cufftitles never worn in Afrika Tim, I would like to be so sure as you are, but I'm not. And I'm not because I know in this field every day is possible a new discovery change our mind.
A lot of strange CTs were worn everywhere, including Africa. For example a "strange" Afrika CT since november 1942, 2 months before the official institution...

I wouldn't be so sure of old "I heard"...

**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-17-2017, 03:11 AM

Thankyou Antonio,

WE all will continue working together on this one as it is a very interesting possibility

ciao
Tim

**JasonA** · 05-17-2017, 06:18 PM

Hi Tim,

Dal and Ralph's experience is voluminous. No doubting what they (and others like them) have gleaned in their years of collecting and dialogues with veterans. It's the number that's important here. As valuable as their perspectives are, hundreds is a statistically invalid segment to draw conclusions like this from. So I would respectfully debate any definitive statement about the existence of something not yet seen based upon those numbers. That's all I'm trying to say.

I focus on Luftwaffe officer and general rank, but even there I've seen things that many of my predecessors (with decades-long experience) hadn't seen before - including advanced & respected collectors and dealers alike. So I think it's healthy to remain open about possibilities which frankly, are just as likely as many of the other anomalies we've seen, and will continue to see over the coming years. Especially among senior rank where regulations were often malleable.

In general, I'd add that this hobby is very subjective. Especially with things like bullion which is hand made and can very widely in quality and craftsmanship. Not making a statement as to the legitimacy of any cuffs posted here, but I am saying that there are likely period things impugned on this forum, and illegitimate things which are deemed original. I've often seen comments like "the Germans never would have made/allowed/authorized that," etc., but that statement in of itself is ludicrous to me. As if they were infallible in every regard. But that is a topic for another day.

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe

Lead,
Follow,
or get out of the way....
Tim

I don't know what this means in the context of this discussion.

Best regards,

J-

**Tim O'Keefe** · 05-17-2017, 07:18 PM

I think we are all in agreement here. This 10 year old thread has done nothing for confirming or denying the existance of the bullion Afrika w/palms being worn in Afrika. We all are still searching to see if we can identify one being worn in Afrika.

It would be great if say Matt or Antonio (or anyone) finds what we're looking for....

p/s
Hmmm "Lead, follow or get out of the way"
Just another way to say "with best regards" or "Heia Safari" thats all.

the search continues....
Tim

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