Lets take a look at this grouping

[Mike C]

Also - decorations (until 1943) were WB (Black), Ostmedaille, GAB, EK II, EK I and RK.

Mike

[NTZ]

Well the waffenrock is out.

[NTZ]

Also - decorations (until 1943) were WB (Black), Ostmedaille, GAB, EK II, EK I and RK.

Mike

This sure adds to the loop mystery.

Here is one I would like to hear Craig’s explanation on. Aside from the RK/ Rank problem I have he won his wound, EK1 and GAB all as an Ober LT. Why would he add loops to his walking out without adding the pip for Ober LT? Also the ribbon loops are for a one place, he would have had two place.

[Federico Perez]

Here's the other tunic. Again, we have a row of 5 individual loops, not suggesting a Spange, but something else entirely. Especially when you consider that the top two loops - where a Spange woud have gone, appear to be done at DIFFERENT times. It appears to me, as I suggested before, that more loops were added for an additional award of, say, a Wound Badge, without removing the older ones. Of course, the possibility exists that they could have been added by a collector or dealer. Also, it should be noted that these tunics are virtually identical with respect to size - they are not just "kinda similar." Finally, I studied the nametapes, and they are commensurate with the wear of the tunics. While it's a good idea to have a handwriting person look at these, I don't really have a handwriting expert, and frankly, assuming that Schneider's war-record checks out, I don't have a problem NOT going to a handwriting expert. I've had enough named tunics to be comfortable with the nametapes. You may disagree, but for now, respectfully, I have no problem with the tapes.

Well, this is the final round for me for this grouping. I don't think is that dificult to find an acredited handwriting expert, the courts,lawyers and corporations use them all the time to coroborate discrepancies in official documents,contracts,certificates and most important the handwriting which made these documents official and legal for use for the parties involved.

With all due respect Mr. Gottlieb, you may have the soldier record,photos,letters etc, THAT WILL NOT MAKE the grouping belong to him, the name tag is what makes the link to the officer and you can see the diference right away. I have in my collection a 4 pocket luftwaffe officer tunic which have been highly decorated, loops for a DKiG or Spanish cross,close combat or fighter clasp,ribbon bar and 3 set of loops for medals, I could look for an Luftwaffe fighter/paratrooper with the same
rank and medals composition and belive it's his........BUT I WILL NEVER KNOW since I don't have a name tag or bulletproof provenance to give it a name.

An here is what a expert on the field of hadwriting will be able to certified two things....1-Is the type of caligraphy use by the officer, 2-IT WAS MADE by the officer, the two of them!!. Also in most cases they will be able to date the ink, for what I can see the person(s) wich did the writing used a fountain pen, and some times that make it easy to find the mistakes. Is there with that test that you will have a good anchor to put a name to the original owner. If the handwriting is not his...theres another red flag!

In this day and age we have to write everithing in duplicate, people want to have you bound with your word and signature!!

Fred

[NTZ]

This train wreck just gets worse. Look at the highlighted areas.



This superb group consists of the 3 major uniforms attributed to Knights Cross winner Rudolf Schneider.
GALLERY ITEM, INQUIRIES WELCOME


First tunic to mention is the pink piped walking-out tunic. It qualifies as mint, and but for one or two tiny flaws that are actually inside the tunic, it's a screamer. It exhibits no pips, but the shoulderboards show signs that there were pips on them. Tailor is out of Munich. The compat tunic shows wear and age, and is, in my opinion, the exact tunic as worn in the photo that is provided in this listing. While the photo is blurry, certain physical characteristics are very clearly evident in the photo. It is also named, and although it does not contain a matching tailor label (it is gone), the construction patterns for these two tunics clearly show that they were made by the same tailor. It exhibits the correct rank pips for the photograph that I have of Schneider wearing what I believe to be the tunic. It shows wear, but is not damaged. Please note: both of these tunics have some strange loop configurations, making it appear that the tunics are set up for a Spange. This would not be correct for Schneider. However, it could just as easily be a sports award, or could possibly have been a post-war embellishment. In my view, the eagle on the combat tunic has been replaced (80% of tunics have replaced eagles, but some are not done as well as others, and so sometimes you can tell). The final tunic is the Parade Dress tunic. It's in superb superb condition, and was tailored in Quidlinberg. I have requested Schneider's biography, so hopefully we can tie him to that area. On the inside collar of each of these tunics are three custom-installed hooks that accomodate a Knights Cross. This would have made it extremely easy for Schneider to wear his award, with a bit of ribbon stuffed in for flair. With this modifiction, Schneider would not have had to untie his knights cross to get his jacket off - the cross would just hang there on the collar. Please note that the ribbon bar is a post-war add-on, and is included for decorative purposes. The Knights Cross is a "Rounder" and can be purchased along with the tunic for whatever they're worth on today's market. Please note, this set of tunics is being reserved in my gallery until I can get a copy of this officer's service records. I will split the group up, but wish to wait until I find out more information about Schneider - hopefully more photos!



Where in the world is the signs of a pip?????? I do see signs it was post war restored.

[Craig Gottlieb]

I certainly do not mean to imply that a Spange is impossible. I just wish to highlight the fact that before the close-ups were posted, everyone was shouting "Spange" when in fact it is probably not the most likely explanation. However, it is still technically a posibility. But now that the tunic loops are not by themselves problematic (because they point to a Spange) I submit that we can remove the loops from the list of suspect things to look at.

[NTZ]

Are you going to remove the waffenrock from the “group”? In the other thread it has been proved without any shadow of a doubt it did not belong to him.

That alone reinforced everything that has been said about the rest. Someone put himself or herself a grouping together.

[airborne_steve]

All I can say is, I would hate to be the guy to buy this "group" just to find out that it is piecemeal. Better just to sell the questionable tunics individually and put side the providece as tentative speculation. That would be the most honest approah IMHO

Steve

[Johnnie]

Graig,
In the interest of establishing the authenticity of these uniforms only, it would be helpful if you would provide us the provenence that led you to aquire them. You obviously paid a pretty penny for them. Who did you get them from? What were you told about them?
What actually led you to aquire them as a "group"
So far, to me at least, your arguments in favor of them actually belonging to the RKT in question fall into the category of "hope against hope". The preponderance of the physical evidence provided by impartial and knowlegeable uniform collectors here indicates that even if they all three belonged to the same man, it wasn't the RKT you indicate.
Still with an open mind,

Johnnie

[NTZ]

Well the waffenrock has already been excluded from this group. Now lets see if the M36 & walking out are from the same man. Craig did you measure the sleeve length yet?

[Mike C]

It would be difficult to link Craig's tunics to Quedlinburg (Wehrkreis XI). If I read the date of the tailor labels correctly (9 II 1939 = 9 February 1939), then at that date Schneider was an Unteroffizier at the Kriegschule in Munich; promoted Fahnrich on 4 April 1939; OberFahnrich/Leutnant on 1 August 1939. He then served with the 36th Anti-tank Battalion (a predominately Bavarian unit serving in Wehrkreis XII) until 5 December 1939.

Mike

[NTZ]

If I read the date of the tailor labels correctly (9 II 1939 = 9 February 1939), then at that date Scheider was an Unteroffizier at the Kriegschule in Munich; promoted Fahnrich on 4 April 1939; OberFahnrich/Leutenant on 1 August 1939. He then served with the 36th Anti-tank Battalion (a predominately Bavarian unit serving in Wehrkreis XII) until 5 December 1939.

Mike

This is just one more nail in the coffin for this group. Why would he have two tunics tailored for him as an officer when he did not get premoted to Lt. for 6 more months???????????


With the multitude of problem with this group there is not one reasonable man on this planet that could still believe that ANY of these tunics did belong to who they are claimed to belong to. The problems far exceed any reasonable explanation and when put together only one conclusion can be reached. The entire set was put together. Craig can come back to this thread and give us his what ifs, maybe’s and other dreams of it being real but the bottom line is that THIS WHOLE SET HAS FORMALLY BEEN DEBUNKED. You can’t argue FACTS, LOGIC & COMMON SENSE.

[Johnnie]

These are the only common sense conclusions that can be drawn.
I'm wondering if Craig, in the interest of the hobby, will answer my questions as to the provenence of these uniforms in order to learn more about them.


Cheers,
Johnnie

This is just one more nail in the coffin for this group. Why would he have two tunics tailored for him as an officer when he did not get premoted to Lt. for 6 more months???????????


With the multitude of problem with this group there is not one reasonable man on this planet that could still believe that ANY of these tunics did belong to who they are claimed to belong to. The problems far exceed any reasonable explanation and when put together only one conclusion can be reached. The entire set was put together. Craig can come back to this thread and give us his what ifs, maybe’s and other dreams of it being real but the bottom line is that THIS WHOLE SET HAS FORMALLY BEEN DEBUNKED. You can’t argue FACTS, LOGIC & COMMON SENSE.

[TxGauleiter]

Craig,
perhaps as a service to any potential customers you have that arent familiar with this site or the controversy surrounding this group, perhaps you can provide links to this thread in the description on your site?

I would feel better seeing this thread linked, in the interests of 'full disclosure'...

It would go a long way in the protection all of concerned, dont you agree?

[Bill D.]

Gentlemen:

It is clear that many of these posts encompass two seperate and distinct components:

1. Criticisms/observations/comments/ questions regarding the uniform grouping; and
2. Comments that are directed personally towards or about the seller.

The first category of posts are welcome; that is why this forum exists.
The second category of comments really have no place here.

I will say again that this forum has often produced threads that discuss items being offered by professional dealers, and many of those threads describe problems with the items or, at the very least, serious questions that arise. Craig is one of the very few dealers who not only appear on this forum to discuss items that he is offering, but to respond with something more than "I'm holding this item and I can see things that you cannot".

At the same time, I know of at least one well known dealer who has a policy of NOT entering into such discussions, for reasons that have to do with not wanting to influence a collector discussion on an item in which he has a vested interest. He watches the discussions, takes information to heart, but does not post. I can respect that approach as well.

If you have an opinion that is different fro someone else's, by all means say it. But simply because YOUR opinion is not immediately embraced by another person does not mean that you can attack them with insults or sarcasm.

If this process does not change, this thread will go the way of its predecessor. It will dissapear, and infractions will be issued.