Lets take a look at this grouping

[NTZ]

I figured this might as well go into the uni section since I have doubts. Fire away guys. We can also talk about the crack pipe pricing too.


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=265635

[CWP]

What more can be said? The price is absolutely shocking- but the dealer can ask whatever he wants. I am not offended by sellers asking insane prices, what does bother me is when sellers find buyers at these prices! NTZ, I agree that the concerns you raised in the other thread call the grouping into question. The provenance is simply not there. Now listen to THIS... I was curious to see if the name Rudolf Schneider was a particularly common one. I checked out the Volksbund Deutscher Kriegsgraeberfuersorge web site, they have a searchable database of 4.4 million German soldiers killed or missing in WWI and WWII. The database is not complete and of course does not include the names of soldiers who survived the war. Can you guess how many soldiers with the same name, spelled the same way, were killed or listed as missing in WWII? What do you think? How about... TWO HUNDRED AND SIXTY-NINE! No way to tell if any of these guys was a Panzer officer but I would say that the attribution of these uniforms is extremely questionable.

[NTZ]

The sad thing is if it were reasonably priced it would have just flown under the radar. But hell, jack the price up like you found the Holy Grail and everyone is going to give it a once over. There are so many if’s and why’s with that set without rock solid provenance there is no way in the world you can make those claims. Speaking of provenance to get three tunics from one man is pretty hard. About the only way is to get it directly from him or his family. If that were really the case I am dead certain there would be a big old story about how it came directly from the vets family. That kind of provenance is not lost in a trade. I for one would love to hear the story behind it.

[NTZ]

Since the other thread was removed, lets try this like gentleman. I would hate to see someone screwed out of $19K for what IMHO is completely put together. Stay on topic and this one won’t go bye, bye. Can anyone add any positive comments regarding the set or are we all on the same page?

[RichieC]

Why was the other theme removed? I read all of it with great interest until page thirteen tonight. However, when I went to read page fourteen and the latter, I was denied access.

Did I do something wrong?

[Johnnie]

The thread was killed because of the personal attacks on Craig, according to Dave Sutter.
Even though I am not a uniform collector, I for one would like to see this sorted out. There are a number of issues here besides just the tunics.
So Craig, if you are reading this I make the same offer I did on the deceased thread. I'm keeping an open mind here, certainly no ax to grind.
So please explain to me how two of these tunics you attribute to a RKT have EKI Spange loops when said RKT wasn't even old enough to have been in the First War.
And guys, lets keep this thread clean so this can be honestly pursued.

Cheers,
Johnnie

[Al P]

NTZ, you had some very revealing pictures that you posted to the other thread. Any chance you could repost those so the issues those pictures raised could be discussed here.

Al

[NTZ]

Well lets start over. It is my opinion that the group is put together and here are the basics why. The group is names to Rudolf Schneider who was 22yrs old when he won his RK. Here is the description off Craig’s site.


Thanks to David Kane, I am now able to conclusively identify, via photographs, one of the tunics in the group. Please see the last photo for an analysis of the photograph. Thanks a bunch, Dave! Anyway, originally worn by Rudolf Schneider, who was awarded his Knights Cross with 1./Panzerjäger-Abteilung 342 / 342 on September 4, 1942. Rarely do you get a group that leaves NO speculation as to the attribution of the grouping. Well, in this case, there are so man positive elements! First, the first tunic to mention is the piped walking out. It is tailor made by the exact same firm that tailor made the M36 tunic. How can you tell? Because the construction details that went into making both tunics are identical. One look inside will tell you that they were made by the same company. Both are named with matching nametapes to Schneider (not a mickey-mouse nametape, but a propertly ink-written, tailor-named tape). The second element that ties the three uniforms together is that they are all exactly the same size - these were made for the same man. True, the parade dress is not named, and it is tailored by a different tailor, but this is okay. It makes sense this way - the Parade Dress would have been the first tunic Schneider got, and he was most likey restationed by the time he got the second 2 made. The third and final piece that ties everything together beautifully are three custom-installed hooks that Schneider had affixed to his collars to accomodate the Knights Cross. This was done so he wouldn't have to untie his knights cross to get his jacket off - the cross would just hang there on the collar. All tunics are made of fine quality wool, The Parade Dress has maybe one or two tiny moth nips that do not detract The piped walking out qualifies as mint. The M36 has been worn, and shows more age than the first two tunics. Short of a couple of minor moth nips in inconspicuous places, it's in super shape. Please note: the M36 has an extra set of loops that appear to be for a Spange - this would not be correct for this officer, who was born to late to earn an Iron Cross during WWI. Anyway, unless you had a super-hero's uniform like Michael Wittmann's or something, this hero's uniforms would serve as the centerpiece of any panzer collection. Yep it's expensive. However, it's basically only a little more than double what these uniforms would cost were they un-named, and not part of a group. Not bad when you consider that. Please note: the cross is a Rounder, and is not included in the purchase (unless you want it with the group, in which case it can be priced in, accordingly, at the going rate for these). I also have all the badges and even a hat and belt (not original to the group), to dress this uniform out if you want a full set. Please also note (thanks WAFers) that the medal bar is incorrect for this tunic, and is obviously a post-war add-on. Oh yeah, 10% off for WAF Members - haha!

Here are the fundamental problems as I see it.
1. The set came with a ribbon bar that has a WWI EK2 ribbon (he could not have been in WWI)
2. Two of the three tunics have badge loops for a EK1 spange (same as above)
3. The waffenrock has a D cipher that was not authorized until 1941. In 1941 Schneider was not assigned to HQ nor had he ever been and the reg.# does not match up to his service.
4. The insignia is poorly attached on the Walking out tunic and M36. In fact the collar tabs are hand sewn. Something that would be a red flag for a walking out tunic. Plus none of the ranks match.
5. There is something about the two nametags that bother me. It is almost like someone tried to write two tags the same but for whatever reason could not do them exactly the same.
6. Rudolf won his RK in 1942 and all three of these tunics have an RK device attached. He was an Ober.LT when he won the RK. Why would he add a RK device to all his tunics but not upgrade the rank pips on two of them? If they were left at home it could explain why rank was not updated but with the RK devices you know he had the tunics after 1942. This one clinches it for me.
7. Craig has a photo he claims is of one of the uniforms and I say no way in hell.


Here is his pic

[NTZ]

Craig after being asked 100 times to address the issues like spange loops, etc has yet to say a single word. He just keeps doging the question. Lets first debunk his claim that the photo is the tunic. Take a look at these points. Also Craigs tunic uses regular tunic buttons for the shoulder boards. The tunic in the pic uses standard board buttons that are much smaller.

[NTZ]

No this one can’t be denied. The tunic in the photo has the rayon split Russian braid type collar tabs. The tunic Crag claims is the same one (the M36) has the twisted bullion <<<< type. There is no way in hell you can confuse the two.

[NTZ]

Now for those who want to see a little experiment I did as Dave still thinks they might be the same tabs. I took one of my tunics with Russian braid and did a B&W shot then blurred it like a period photo. Walla!!! The same look on the tabs.

[NTZ]

The same can not be done with bullion.

[NTZ]

Bullion will always show its texture in a photo so the bottom line is NOT EVEN THE PHOTO IS THE SAME TUNIC. I mean how may tunics does Craig think one man can own??????

[NTZ]

Now the one question that if someone can answer could 100% positively debunk all of Craig’s tunics.

Two are dated 1939 and both are officers tunics, one Lt. And one Hauptmann. When was Rudolph promoted to Lt.? If it was after 1939 this whole group can be dismissed right away with no speculation. Can anyone find this info?

[Mike C]

The key is to identify the service details of the RKT - which would address as well the issue of the "D" cypher and "8" number. It would have been unusual for a non-generalstab qualified RKT to leave his unit (342 Panzer-Jaeger Abteilung) and Division (342 Infantry - from the Rhineland) to serve in another division or anti-tank unit (the 8th Panzer-Jaeger or 8th Jaeger Division judging from the board cyphers). The 8th Panzer-Jaeger was an element of the 8th Jaeger Division (a Silesian formation) - so if this officer was serving in either of these two units, he should also have worn Jaeger sleeve insignia. At this point in the war, there was no 8th Infantry Division as it was converted from infantry to jaeger in France in late 1942 - just when this officer was winning his RK.

Now it is possible that like the ribbon bar, the cypher and number were added but, if so, why?

I also do not believe that the period photo shows one of the tunics.

No desire here but to make the best possible assessment of this group - to aid both seller and potential buyer(s).

Mike