Generaloberst Dietl cufftitle for sale at Kai Winklers?

[Simon O.]

For a while now i've been trying to track down information as to whether or not the 'Generaloberst Dietl' or 'Dietl' cuffband was ever produced and worn. I had as yet been unable to find any evidence either for or against their award. That was until Kai Winkler's last update http://www.nordheideversand.de . He is offering a 'Generaloberst Dietl' cufftitle for sale and if my bad German has got it right he states that it is only one of 3 known examples.
What do you guys think? I honestly don't know, its a little difficult when you don't have anything to refer to. I do believe however that the cuffband was produced and worn, but that belief is until further evidence comes along based on reasoning more than anything else.

At any rate the asking price is way over my budget (wifes level of tolerance)



regards

Simon

[Mike C]

Hello Simon,

Gordon Williamson would disagree with you. On page 88 of the work he authored with Thomas McGuirl (German Military Cuffbands 1784-Present), he writes that the order awarding this cuffband to Gebirgs-Jager Brigade 139 was issued 13 April 1945. He also writes that it was extremely unlikely that this band was ever produced with the possible exception of a very few locally produced ones. He also notes that no originals have ever come to light.

Given the late date of authorization, I would tend to agree.

Mike

[Simon O.]

Hello Mike
I have actually asked Gordon about the 'Dietl' cufftitle but i'll leave it up to him to comment further.
I was a little surprised to see the date you gave for its institution and i'd like to know the original source for this date. Two references i have give it as being august '44. The actual order from the OKH is quoted in one. Namely, OKH-Org. Abt.II/5220/44 dated 12th August '44.
I would tend to agree that any cufftitles produced would have been locally made but the unit had all the time in the world to get them made whilst in Norway after pulling out of Finland. If the award was instituted in August '44 i would like to hear a good reason why they would not have worn something which was granted to them by an order of Hitler and in honour of their famous former commander.


regards

Simon

[Mike C]

Hi Simon,

With an earlier date, would completely agree that the Brigade would have had time to spare to obtain cufftitles. However using Gordon's work, the date of 13 April is when (he writes) a telegram was sent from OKH to Armee-Abteilung Narvik authorizing this cufftitle. The absence of any cufftitle would suggest that the authorization was, in fact, late in coming - if given in August 1944, I think there would have been more than a few. The Curland cufftitle was only authorized in March 1945 but numerous examples abound - albeit for a far larger organization. A unit of comparable size, Infantry Regiment "List", was issued cufftitles in December '43 and again there are numerous examples.

Just some thoughts - but I am not an expert in this area! All the best,

Mike

[CSP]

I note from Kai's site that the cufftitle in question is an unfinished example - if we are talking about the same one. I/we may ask him why he believes it authentic, but that might best be accomplished privately versus on open forum.

I think it a mistake to believe that just because the KURLAND cuffband was done locally, that any other command was prone to jump ahead and do the same. The circumstances under which the KURLAND band was done differ a lot from those in Norway I think.

And, regardless of the exact 'late' date of the decision to institute the award, as well as the evidence to point to actual awards happening, I think one has to look at the probable perspective of the Germans at that time. No one knew the war would end in May 1945 in spite of how bad things had gotten - and Norway was a relativelly quiet sector. This, coupled with the regimentation and thoroughness of the German manufacturing/awards system leads me to contend that the vast majority of commands had both seen new awards instituted before and had some level of expectation and confidence - if that is the right word - that this cufftitle would eventually be forthcoming... and thus be less inclined to go get them made locally. As such, the end came before the system fullfilled tehir expectations.

What do you think?

Scott

[Simon O.]

Mike and Scott, you both put forward some very good points, here's a couple more for consideration.
If the initial institution was indeed Aug. '44 and it took until Apr. '45 before OKH got around to telling/authorising Armee-abteilung Narvik of it then my next question would be, why the delay?
As regards local manufacture in Norway, AOK 20 was quite isolated for the last 6 months or so of the war or at least it wasn't easy getting anything in and out of the country. In addition its worth taking into account the fact that the German 'system' carried on after the surrender retaining a great deal of autonomy unlike their comrades on the continent which is evidenced by the post-May '45 awards of the Lappland shield and other decorations. This then might raise the question of why they would go to all the trouble of making and issuing one award and not another?


Of course if it actually ever had been awarded one would expect that out of a unit of around 3 000 men something more might have surfaced.




Regards

Simon

[Gordon Williamson]

I think what we may be seeing is confusion between the honor title and the cuffband.
Gebirgsjäger Brigade 139 was authorised to bear the name Generaloberst Dietl in June 1944, but as far as I am aware, the authorisation to wear a cuffband was not issued until 1945.

I am aware of three documents, of which I have copies, all official telegrams

1- Dated 13.4.45 from (Geb.) AOK 20 announcing the award of the cuffband to GJB 139 and quoting order Nr 85751/45 of the same date (13 April 1945) from OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt.

2-Dated 6.5.45 from (Geb.)AOK20 to Armee-Abt.Narvik and signed by General der Gebirgstruppe Böhme passing on the announcement and quoting the actual date of award of the title as 20 April 1945.

3. Also dated 6.5.45 and being the official notification of the award. It reads

"Im Auftrage des Führers verleihe ich der Geb.Jäger-Brig. 139 das Ärmelband "Generaloberst Dietl". Die verleihung ist sofort bekanntzugeben und in die Personalppiere einzutragen. Ärmelbänder werden nachgeliefert."

Given that this announcement was literally only a few days before the end of the war, it seems unlikely that manufacture of the band (which is said will be provided at a later date) in any sort of numbers could have happened. It may be a situation like the Lappland Shield, where examples may have been made up in the days immediately after the surrender. With less than one month between authorisation and the end of the war, it would have taken a superhuman effort to get this insignia manufactured BEFORE the war ended.

Gordon

[Simon O.]

Hello Gordon
Thankyou for helping to clarify matters. Are you familiar with the OKH order i mentioned earlier? It is quoted in 'uniforms and traditions vol.2' but did Angolia confuse the honour title with the armband?
I can't say that i've seen GJR139 or the brigade mentioned with their honour title in documents of the period but then again i haven't seen that many. I was interested to note that the wording of the order states Gebirgsjäger-Brigade 139 rather than the regiment. This of course increases the potential number of elligible recipients. In fact by the time the unit must have received the order the brigade no longer existed as it had been broken up in the restructuring of the 9 Geb.Div. into a full gebirgs-division.
I'd like to see if the award was at least entered into wehrpasses and soldbuchs.



Could i ask you Gordon where you dug up these documents relating to AOK20? It has always been my understanding that the Bundesarkiv doesn't have any records for AOK20 that late in the war. What little i have came from Norwegian archives.


Regards

Simon

[Gordon Williamson]

Photocopies were sent to me some years back when I started working on the cuffband book. Not sure where they were originally sourced from.

[Gordon Williamson]

Next

[Simon O.]

Thankyou gordon, very Interesting documents. Remold took over command of the 6 Geb.Div. a week after signing that signal.


regards

Simon

[Kai Winkler]

Generaloberst Dietl

Hello Members,
I see that my cufftitle "Generaloberst Dietl" seems to be a part to be discussed.
First I want to thank Gordon because he share with us very interesting informations about this cufftitle.
I buy this cufftitle a long time ago on a show where a collector offer them to a lot of dealers and experts but I am the one who has the first bit and I get them. What I get are 3 1/2 cufftitles mashine embroid in one piece. All other dealers and experts they get this offer wants to buy them and was shure that this cufftitles are original. From the material and the way the mashine embroing was done these cufftitles are original. All of you know that I am a big insignia and cufftitle collector and that I know what is real and not real. The "Fernschreiben" of Gordon he post at this thread also tell that this cufftitles was produced.

[Albert]

Hello all,

With the Fernschreiben of April 13. 1945 Kdo.Armee-Abt.Narvik was informed of the Führer's decision that all officers, NCOs, and EM were to wear the cuff title in question. It also says the titles were already procured and sent to the unit.

With the Fernschreiben of May 5.1945 General Böhme awards the cuff title to Geb.Jg.Brig.139, but says the cuff titles themselves will follow.

Apparently there was a delay somewhere leading to the fact that only a couple of day's before the war's end the unit still didn't receive their cufftitles. To me this would make any handing out of the actual cuff title rather unlikely.

As for the production stage their is room for interpretation. Did the procurement officer make sure the cuff title was produced and shipped? Or did he just order it, negotiate a delivery date and address, passed this piece of info up to their superiors, and left it at that? Too many questions...

Just my two cents (Euro-Cent of course:-)

Regards,
Al