Leather trousers for the " Kriegsmarine "

[CollectRussia]

Thanks Simon, that's my point. And concerning the short leather wrap specifically, I've yet to see a clear wartime photo of a Schnellboot or SS Panzer crewman wearing one. Rare to find a shot of one in wear at all, so far I've only seen photos of a U-Boat and Zerstorer crewmen wearing it.

Can anyone provide photographic evidence to support the S-Boot claims? I think that would be very interesting.

[phild]

Thanks Simon, that's my point. And concerning the short leather wrap specifically, I've yet to see a clear wartime photo of a Schnellboot or SS Panzer crewman wearing one. Rare to find a shot of one in wear at all, so far I've only seen photos of a U-Boat and Zerstorer crewmen wearing it.

Can anyone provide photographic evidence to support the S-Boot claims? I think that would be very interesting.

I agree with you on the above. We are not talking about leather trousers being worn alone or as part of the standard KM leathers by crews of anything but, rather this particular wrap type set with the very unique style leather trousers made with it.

As I said in my earlier post, photos from the last 6 to 8 months of the war are much less often seen that those from any other period of the war, at least that is my experience. I have read decades ago that all of the official German War photo negatives/originals from the last year of so of the war were lost/destroyed during the the last days of the war as they were being moved.

Most photos from that period that are found tend to be grainy and difficult to make out a lot of detail. I am talking about candid field taken photos of course and not studio which would have no bearing on this subject.

The photo of the HG PZ officers is published and is of good clarity but, it only shows about mid chest up as I reacall. The original my have been cropped for publication....don't know.

I just conclude by saying that there are few clear photos of KM crews or PZ crews in a tactical or operational environment where this type of proctive clothing would have been worn, that also date from the last 6 months of the war which is when it would have been worn and also are clear enough to make out details on black clothing enough to tell really what it is. I would bet the bank that one or more will be found in the future. In the meantime I am pretty confident in the evidence that I have found from the items, from a few vets and from the published sources that these were in fact used by some PZ crewmembers and some KM personnel.

[CollectRussia]

Considering the current scarcity of documentation, and where photographic documentation does exist it points elsewhere, there is yet zero evidence to conclude this uniform was specifically intended for S-boot / SS Panzer crewmen.

As Simon and I wrote, its most likely a general issue KM garment, and the "sexy" S-boot association is just another case of wishful thinking by some collectors and dealers. As for trial issue to SS panzer formations, I'm very interested to see the US Army intelligence documentation referred to here. Meanwhile I'll be cautious and file it under collector lore.

All that being said, I think its a sharp KM uniform and a worthy collectible.

[phild]

Considering the current scarcity of documentation, and where photographic documentation does exist it points elsewhere, there is yet zero evidence to conclude this uniform was specifically intended for S-boot / SS Panzer crewmen.

As Simon and I wrote, its most likely a general issue KM garment, and the "sexy" S-boot association is just another case of wishful thinking by some collectors and dealers. As for trial issue to SS panzer formations, I'm very interested to see the US Army intelligence documentation referred to here. Meanwhile I'll be cautious and file it under collector lore.

All that being said, I think its a sharp KM uniform and a worthy collectible.

As I always say: To each, his own.

The photo of the HG PZ Officers (plural) wearing what appears to be these exact contract version wrap leathers with metal pz collar skuls affixed is pretty compelling to me. I also had a conversation with a 9th armored div. (U.S.) vet about 23 years ago who decribed finding one of these wraps (yes he still had the wrap and I looked at it) in an abandoned Das Reich tank during the the "Bulge" mop up phase circa Jan 45.

There are many, many collectors that doubt the existance of period SS FJ Smocks on the same basis of your concerns. On the other hand many collectors have absolutly found these in the hands of vet that brought them back. We have some very compelling evidence that some of these smocks were issued...but most never made it that far and thus there is little to no confirmed photo evidence of their wear...again these were very late made items.

I will also say this about everything in this hobby. It is very easy for one's own beliefs to become self fullfilling prophecies when it comes to what is real and what is not. It can be very easy to find doubts about a lot of types of items just as it can be easy to find rational to accept types of items as real with little sound basis...the axe swings both ways.

I do agree with you to the extent that solid primary source German documentation of these would go a long way to clearing their intended use and perhaps their actual use up (if different) as would a few more good quality period photos of their use.

[Simon O.]

No one's doubting their existence, In Gordon Williamson's new book 'Torpedo Los!' there are two photos of the wraps in wear by U-boat men. From photos it's difficult to impossible to tell what type of trousers are being worn.

[Winkelman]

Apart from the whole leather wrap discussion - that was an interesting shot of the Winter Flightcap in wear by KM . No doubt the version without earphones , that seems to be abundant ..