Second Wrapper Discussion

[Craig Gottlieb]

16th

[Craig Gottlieb]

And the last photo

[phild]

I think that this one is original as well. It has a couple of small characteristics that I don't normally expect to see on most originals, but these are not "show stoppers" the fabric is of a type that seems to start appearing circa 1942 and the general construction, age appearence of the thread, wear, markings and small details are not easy to fake to look like this. The straps seem to be the SS style of tounges...others can comment more on these.

Overall it appears to be legit.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Thank you for the comment - I would like to learn what characteristics you noticed which were of interest to you (so I can learn). Thanks in advance.

[besslein]

I think that this one is original as well. It has a couple of small characteristics that I don't normally expect to see on most originals, but these are not "show stoppers" the fabric is of a type that seems to start appearing circa 1942 and the general construction, age appearence of the thread, wear, markings and small details are not easy to fake to look like this. The straps seem to be the SS style of tounges...others can comment more on these.

Overall it appears to be legit.

I agree with you abaut straps-the are for Waffen SS

[Craig Gottlieb]

Do we feel that the boards were just used on this wrap, or that they are post-war replaced? Or, is there no way to tell? One thing I can say is that all of the material on the piece appears to be faded and worn to the exact same degree, making a post-war match difficult. Look forward to replies. Thanks!

[Richard P]

Craig,

If Phild told you all he knew on this wrapper, factories making fakes all over the world would have to shut down their assembly lines to make changes. Just kidding, but do pay attention when Phil makes comments because you can usually take them to the bank. One point...in photo #2 you show the inside of the cuff where the buttonhole is on a piece of lining material. Notice how that piece is stitched in in a boxed manner. That also shows from the outside. Many "textbook" collectors will dismiss this wrapper based on that one characteristic alone. That is because Janke makes all their wrappers that way. That trait was apparently up to the manufacturer in WWII and apparently Janke patterned theirs after one that used the boxed style stitching. The angled stitching is much more common on period pieces, but is only one factor.
The boards do exhibit classic SS characteristics like the thin tongues. Apparently someone had metal numbers on instead of slip-ons which would be proper for this rank. Its impossible to say that the boards could not be used on a Heer wrapper. The numbers could have been wartime even though against regulations, only the original wearer can say. If someone didn't like the boards they could always change them. I have seen "Heer" style boards on SS wraps and vice versa. That is a collector foible...not an absolute. The tabs I would like to see in person. The inside details look good as far as materials and construction go. I also don't mind the use of the many zig-zagged together sections under the collar, especially in later manufacture just before they went to a single layer collar. Some do not like that, another foible. Hope this helps, thanks for sharing.

Richard P

[Craig Gottlieb]

Richard: Excellent post. One of the reasons I bring these pieces to the forum. You are both obviously specialists with respect to this type of uniform. It's very hard for dealers to be specialists on everything, which is why collector-input is so important with some of the "PhD" level artifacts. In my personal view, these boards would be "worth" a lot more separated from the wrap, with original replacements found for the wrap. However, I feel comfortable selling the group as-is and leaving it up to the new owner to decide on a course of action that pleases him or her.