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**NickG** · 12-20-2009, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

These wraps that we are discussing in this thread are all of late war vintage.

Late War?? Sure looks like it with the RBNr and date...or perhaps these
were re-furbished and re-issued with new stamps? (new stock numbers?)
Who knows...? Maybe Angolia got it wrong after all...

Its just odd that these did come with double breasted exterior buttons like that (as I suspected) and designed for military use like that...?
If they had these made to mimick a Pz/wrapper but in leather, exterior buttons and cuff buttons would not have appeared on the piece....
Sounds like reburbished (recycled clothing) to me!

**Johnny R** · 12-20-2009, 07:53 PM

I looked at the pictures and they are NSKK men are wearing what look like coveralls with two breast pockets. The Soldiers are wearing Kradmantels so no help there.

**phild** · 12-20-2009, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Late War?? Sure looks like it with the RBNr and date...or perhaps these
were re-furbished and re-issued with new stamps? (new stock numbers?)
Who knows...? Maybe Angolia got it wrong after all...

Its just odd that these did come with double breasted exterior buttons like that (as I suspected) and designed for military use like that...?
If they had these made to mimick a Pz/wrapper but in leather, exterior buttons and cuff buttons would not have appeared on the piece....
Sounds like reburbished (recycled clothing) to me!

Nick, you can trust me when I say that all of these are later wartime manufacture. It goes way beyond just the fact that many/most sets were not issued, but also the quality of the materials used was simply in no way equal to pre-war standards. Even if they had been re-issued from earlier stocks the early markings would also be there or marked out...and they are not.

I think that you may be putting too much attention on the exterior buttons as well. While no one seems to be able to 100% account for the 2 buttons on the wearers left chest area, the 2 rows of buttons on the right would be completly covered if the wrap was buttoned on the far row. If it was not you would have the same condition as is found on the PZ hbt over-wraps and that never seemed to be much of a problem moving in tanks.

I'm not 100% if they were intended for KM and somewhat used by PZ or the other way around, but I beleive that it was one or the other. I am satisfied based on what I feel to be concrete evidence that they were in fact used by both KM and PZ regardless of who they were designed for.

**NickG** · 12-21-2009, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by phild View Post

Nick, you can trust me when I say that all of these are later wartime manufacture. It goes way beyond just the fact that many/most sets were not issued, but also the quality of the materials used was simply in no way equal to pre-war standards. Even if they had been re-issued from earlier stocks the early markings would also be there or marked out...and they are not.

I think that you may be putting too much attention on the exterior buttons as well. While no one seems to be able to 100% account for the 2 buttons on the wearers left chest area, the 2 rows of buttons on the right would be completely covered if the wrap was buttoned on the far row. If it was not you would have the same condition as is found on the PZ hbt over-wraps and that never seemed to be much of a problem moving in tanks.

I'm not 100% if they were intended for KM and somewhat used by PZ or the other way around, but I beleive that it was one or the other. I am satisfied based on what I feel to be concrete evidence that they were in fact used by both KM and PZ regardless of who they were designed for.

OK thanks I'm convinced.
Final verdict: war time made with proper war time markings and lacking prewar quality. I agree! Angolia got it wrong with the (pre-war) NSKK connection...

Here's one with the exterior buttons (only 2 you are correct!) still present on the exterior...not 2 rows afterall. Image swiped from the web. I realize we're not supposed to do that.... but in an effort to learn more about these...
I've always wanted one actually! I really liked these regardless of who they were (originally) made for!
and I like these way better than the stand-up collar longer KM jackets!

Attached Files

WW2jacket.jpg (55.7 KB, 687 views)

**phild** · 12-21-2009, 10:40 AM

Nick, Thanks for the photo and the analysis for those folks not familiar with these your posts should go a long way in pointing out what to look for.

The fact that some are Rbnr (but not all) and some are dated...but none Depot marked....and all three makers that I have studied made these to a specific spec., but even so some very SLIGHT details varied ...which is typical of many types of contract/issue German uniforms made by different makers....but it all makes these a little confusing...for me anyway.

In this hobby I have long noticed how many collectors and dealers expect (and often achieve!!) instant respect and status by puffing their chest out and making declarative statements about all manner of various items and details...when they have NOTHING to back up their proclamations.

I do not know what service these were designed for and I know that at least based on all introduced information to this point no one else does either....regardless of what they declare.

I do know that these exact sets were worn by PZ personnel late in the war and I know that they were worn by some KM personnel late in the war as well. I also know that some were marked with KM acceptance stamps and some were not.

**Johnny R** · 12-21-2009, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by phild View Post

Nick, Thanks for the photo and the analysis for those folks not familiar with these your posts should go a long way in pointing out what to look for.

The fact that some are Rbnr (but not all) and some are dated...but none Depot marked....and all three makers that I have studied made these to a specific spec., but even so some very SLIGHT details varied ...which is typical of many types of contract/issue German uniforms made by different makers....but it all makes these a little confusing...for me anyway.

In this hobby I have long noticed how many collectors and dealers expect (and often achieve!!) instant respect and status by puffing their chest out and making declarative statements about all manner of various items and details...when they have NOTHING to back up their proclamations.

I do not know what service these were designed for and I know that at least based on all introduced information to this point no one else does either....regardless of what they declare.

I do know that these exact sets were worn by PZ personnel late in the war and I know that they were worn by some KM personnel late in the war as well. I also know that some were marked with KM acceptance stamps and some were not.

We still need more period pictures to figure it out.

**Johnny R** · 12-21-2009, 11:43 AM

I suspect sources like this would close the issue (taken from the web) if you can find them. Most the pictures i have seen they are wearing the cloth suit and leather crash helmet.

Attached Files

MVC-022S.jpg (44.3 KB, 666 views)

**phild** · 12-21-2009, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

We still need more period pictures to figure it out.

I agree. The problem is, but few seem to acknowledge it, that late war items tend to show up very seldom in photos. I'm talking about items introduced the last 12 months or so in the main. Many collectors seem to not believe something unless they can find solid photos of it in use...and that is fine but it really means nothing about if an item is an original or not if it can or can not be found in a period photo.

There are published photos of these wraps in wear by HG panzer officers in the fall of 1944. There are probably dozens of others that have not come out of the wood work yet as well.

The pre-war period in Nazi Germany was probably one of the most publicized and well photographed periods in world history to that point...and maybe since. There were to be sure leather motorcycle regulation uniforms used by many services during that period. At least the Heer, LW, Police and maybe para-military wore regulation Imperial era designed double breasted half length leather coats and leather breeches (not trousers) and these are very very rare today be did exist in limited amounts as late as the 1930s.

I'll give everybody one great example oif what I am talking about: If the massive offical photo series of the HJ Div, PZ rgt training in Belgium circa spring of 44 and a few of the Normany photos of them and the LAH soldiers wearing the U-boot leathers were not taken or published today then 90% of collectors would doubt that the SS ever used those leathers. It was a fluke chance that the unit was photographed while wearing those in may respects. Photo coverage of the last 12 and more so the last 6 months of the war is pretty tough to find except of POWs....when compared to the pre-autumn of 1944....

**Johnny R** · 12-21-2009, 02:42 PM

One of the Munin Verlag books has a picture of I think and HJ Div tank crew wearing these with leather pants and pockets. Have you seen that. It might be in Wenn Alle Bruder- I cannot remember.

**phild** · 12-21-2009, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

One of the Munin Verlag books has a picture of I think and HJ Div tank crew wearing these with leather pants and pockets. Have you seen that. It might be in Wenn Alle Bruder- I cannot remember.

Johnny, I have the book and have been thru it many times over the decades....but not lately. I know that there are many in the series that I mentioned above (HJ Belgium training) that are in there. I have not found or caught one of these wraps in that book but I could have missed it.

The leather uniforms worn in that book as far as I have found anyway are the standard KM single breasted half length jackets and trousers with non-flapped pockets. In most all of those photos the original metal KM buttons have been replaced with black composition types or metal pebbled ones.

**Johnny R** · 12-21-2009, 07:48 PM

I have not seen it in a long time, I will look tonight.

**Johnny R** · 12-21-2009, 08:08 PM

Odd timing, here is one for sale that was just listed- I am not sure the two patterns meaning Jims and the one Mike has and now this one are identical.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=402495

**NickG** · 12-22-2009, 12:16 PM

AND ANOTHER LEATHER WRAPPER SET IN THIS U-BOOT THREAD (POST 40-43)
Clear markings posted!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=97116&page=3

**Gran Sasso** · 12-22-2009, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

Johnny, I have the book and have been thru it many times over the decades....but not lately. I know that there are many in the series that I mentioned above (HJ Belgium training) that are in there. I have not found or caught one of these wraps in that book but I could have missed it.

The leather uniforms worn in that book as far as I have found anyway are the standard KM single breasted half length jackets and trousers with non-flapped pockets. In most all of those photos the original metal KM buttons have been replaced with black composition types or metal pebbled ones.

"phild" is correct, neither in "Wenn alle Brüder schweigen" nor in any other book of Munin-publications (or Podzun-Palles) is a foto of this wrapper worn by tank-crews.

**Johnny R** · 12-22-2009, 01:21 PM

I cannot remember what the jackets were beyond being leather, it could also be in "Der Freiwillinge" I have not seen it for 20+ years. I bought all the books new and have not looked at them carefully since. What I remember is a tank crew and then individual photos of each crew member.

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