Thoughts on these please: tropical NCO's shoulder straps

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Guys, I was asked my opinion on these. I would like to hear your thoughts please?

Cheers, Ade.

[Adrian Stevenson]

2

[Adrian Stevenson]

3

[Adrian Stevenson]

Any thoughts on the very odd construction and materials used?

Cheers, Ade.

[Glenn McInnes]

Perhaps original straps that were covered in tropical material post war.



Glenn

[Glenn McInnes]

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[B. N. Singer]

Seems little doubt that the construction technique is not indicative of a factory production. But whether wartime altered or not would be difficult to determine (for me) from these pictures. If I had to make a purchasing decision based only on these pictures, I would decline.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

They look to me from these images, to be a pair of tropical olive brown wool enlisted-man's shoulder boards for the tropical great-coat which have been altered with the addition of twill material and tropical tress + pips into a pair of NCO boards for the tropical tunic. (The twill material may not even be German ? difficult to determine from these images ? )

Hard to comment any further without a hands on inspection but they may well be period. The DAK and German WH forces in Afrika ran very short of tropical shoulder boards and had to improvise to make up the shortage. This NCO may only have been able to get a pair for a great-coat and has modified them to be a better match for his tunic plus add his rank.

Pairs of tropical boards are hard to find at the best of times but a pair for the tropical great-coat is even harder. What you have under that twill cloth is in fact a very rare pair of boards. Even as they are, they are interesting and nicely show how hard the right ones were to find even during the war.

Please keep in mind that I am stating this without being able to handle them and I am assuming that the olive brown color of the wool which I can see is in fact that correct color. Even if they are field-grey then the same scenario could apply but of course it would also be alot easier for a faker to get a pair of boards and do this. If they are tropical olive brown wool however then I feel that they will most certainly be period.

Hope this is of some use, Chris

[MilitaryCollect]

Hello,

Just my thoughts....

I'd respectfully pass on these. I believe the boards may be made of some genuine WW2 pieces, I entirely doubt if they are tropical or if all the parts are even genuine.

Please note that the "tropical" material has been placed over the top of the board as if to cover a continental or perhaps a post war top. The "tropical" material is readily available today and this stuff does not appear to be worn or faded, but rather bleached or manufactured to be "DAK" sun-faded color. The tresse merely fastens the top down (which appears to be popping up in one area). Whatever is under that would answer the query. The short end of the tresse looks very sloppy. Further, the tresse is available on e-Bay in short 8" to 10" pieces. The tresse is usually and most often made of two pieces with the short end being sewn separately, BUT NOT one piece beginning at the middle of the short end of the board and then sewn all the way around.

Further, the "wool" underlay appears to be blue/grey which I believe appears in 1943 or 44', but it isn't chocolate brown wool as found on all greatcoat boards. I have a genuine pair of panzer grenadier greatcoat boards and am most happy to post pix of those to help in the analysis. A fair number of fakes have this blue/grey wool and I wonder is that too wasn't added to the mix to make these look like tropical issue - original chocolate brown wool is impossible to find.

Cf. I posted a pair of the newest generation of fakes with brown wool in this section below. The waffenfarbe is, I believe, the giveaway. The rest looks pretty good, except for the fact that the brown wool is on both sides of the tongue and the stitching is green, modern poly-filament thread and not white wool or cotton thread as found on original, bona fide pieces.

Finally, there is just something about these boards that says "MADE in the HOUSE of GORK"!

Christopher

[John Hodgin]

If I had to make a purchasing decision based only on these pictures, I would decline.

B. N. Singer

The usual sage advice.

In addition, anyone interested in these straps should ask themselves, "because standard wool straps were worn on tropical uniforms whenever tropical straps were not available, why would a soldier go to the great trouble to crudely convert this pair?" IMHO absurd!
John

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Guys, thank you for all the comments. My opinion on them was negative too.

Cheers, Ade.

[90th Light]

The usual sage advice.

In addition, anyone interested in these straps should ask themselves, "because standard wool straps were worn on tropical uniforms whenever tropical straps were not available, why would a soldier go to the great trouble to crudely convert this pair?" IMHO absurd!
John

"absurd"

may be John but how many officers and senior NCO's insist on uniformity and try to set the example ?

Now that I have been informed that these boards are not the correct tropical brown wool of the over-coat then yes I agree, I am uncertain. It would all be too easy for a faker to do this. On the other hand however why would a faker equally go to all that trouble and do such a bad job ? I mean who was it intended to fool ? the blind perhaps ? Not hard to study any WW2 German NCO shoulder board and get the right idea.

Combine the above point with the fact that I have also seen several examples of New Zealand uniforms and insignia directly from the veterans which were worn in North Africa and have been altered by Arabs employed to do the work or field repaired / altered by the soldier himself. I have never been lucky enough to find as many altered German tropical items but those which I have found field repaired, have been some what rough in the quality of the work done. Always of a pedal machine nature. The exception to this being the tailor made uniforms for British officers from places like Cairo.

Also what type of thread have the boards which started this been modified with ? poly-filament, cotton, wool or ersatz silk ? This point is worthy of investigation.

I apologise for not being able to get what I was saying down to a wise "one-liner" but I do feel that my contribution regardless of being right or wrong has prompted some healthy debate on these boards. I certainly feel better informed by what others have shared. The purpose of a forum is to debate and share knowledge, is it not ?

"Hard some days being an Indian in a collecting world of Gary Coopers",

Chris

[Johnny R]

Fabric

The weave of the covering fabric itself is very similar to West German and also some US fabrics used in the 1950's and later. As suggested by others, things do not add up to the point of taking a chance or leap of faith. I don't like them too much. There would be much easier ways to cut the fabric and mount it to the board. It does not seem likely to me that these are wartime constructions. Just my opinion. I would pass on them.

[90th Light]

The weave of the covering fabric itself is very similar to West German and also some US fabrics used in the 1950's and later. As suggested by others, things do not add up to the point of taking a chance or leap of faith. I don't like them too much. There would be much easier ways to cut the fabric and mount it to the board. It does not seem likely to me that these are wartime constructions. Just my opinion. I would pass on them.

I agree that one would not want to pay too much for this set of boards. They have a very high risk factor. Did the Germans however make such modifications in Afrika

Well it looks like I may not be all alone on this one. If you have the book "Afrikakorps" by Robert Kurtz (Schiffler 2004) then please have a look at page 310. The following quote is the authors words from this page;

"Army NCO tunic shoulder strap. Field modified Unteroffizier strap piped in goldgelb (golden yellow) for reconnaissance troops (early in the North African campaign). This example started life as a continental dark green wool EM strap, and was later overlaided with olive cotton twill and NCO tresse."

The example on this page has certainly been tailored in a neater fashion but that aside this proves that the German soldiers in tropical areas did make such modifications in limited cases. In my experience it sometimes comes down to the personality of the individual soldier. Some can not be bothered well others present their uniform in a serious fashion. Also depends if they are in a combat roll or behind the lines in administration.

I have no way to study the boards which started this in any detail so all I can go on are the images provided but as far as the twill goes it can be German, Austrian, British Empire, French, Italian and yes even American if done in late 42 onwards . Looking at Robert Kurtz splendid book pages 304 to 321 shows the range of colours and shades one can encounter with the German items alone,

Chris