3rd Pattern Tropical Tunic in Tunisia 1942

[DaveJ]

Is this considered 2nd or 3rd pattern?

[djpool]

Hello Jim, I think I have acknowledged you as a scholar and a gentleman before and I now acknowledge this again. The thread is civil and your input is a large part of it. Life is too short for we collectors to fall out and waste time fighting. This is the way to waste time sharing knowledge, learning and enjoying what we collect.

I had always thought of the first, second & third model tropical tunics as being the mark 1,2 and 3 following in close succession. Bobs 45 dated mark 2 throws such a model into question. Also I will now start using the term "Sudfront" where appropriate

Hard for any of us not to be learning something on this thread but if we could put it all together in such a way that all factions agree, now that would be neat.

Anyway thanks Jim and keep up the good work and pictures, Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the kind words. I think the internet and Forums like this really make the hobby more enjoyable. Allows folks with a common passion to share with each other. Like you said, life is to short to spend it making personal attacks; when it could be better used promoting a hobby we all love.

I doubt we will ever reach a consensus based on the one pic. I laid out my position based on the information available and my own analysis.Doesn't mean its right but at least everyone knows how I formed that opinion. I'd love to see more detailed information supporting the opposite viewpoint. I certainly would have no problem changing my mind if the information was persausive enough.

Again a great thread.

wr Jim

[Tim O'Keefe]

Greetings all

Have been following this very interesting thread. At first I thought field officer at center of photo had third pattern issue with wrinkle. Now I'm on the fence.

A field grade officer with 501st HV PZ BN leaving for Tunis would most likely have private purchase. Though he has no tk's ? Maybe agian cause he is field grade or he is not with 501st unit.
Chap on the right side, cap has no soutache but does have tk's so Pz for sure as with officer on left with both soutache, tk's. both with first pattern issue tunics.

Here is a thought from another forum member, thanks Ralph.

"I suspect that the change to no scallops on the pockets and no pleats either was made in stages by some manufacturers. In other words, some were quick to make the change that simplified production and others took longer because the material was already cut out. Some so-called second model tunics and third model tunics may have been made at the same time by different makers -- the only difference being the scalloped pocket flaps. They were probably happy to do away with the pleats on the pockets that took longer to sew and more fabric. Straight pocket flaps and scalloped pocket flaps wouldn't have taken any longer to sew either way."

Dal McGuirk "DAK Self Portrait" has nice photo of third pattern EM, on page # 166, and he looks like he has same wrinkle (seam) as this photo of 3 officers.
In soldats photo it has to be wrinkle not seam as the third pattern is issue.

In photos Ive seen of private purchase tropical tunics they sometimes have no pleats on pockets but scalloped flaps, or sometimes pleated pockets but straight flaps (Rommel), however rare to see both no pleats and straight flaps
on private purchase which is what makes this photo so interesting. IMHO
It must be some variation on third pattern if it is private purchase or issue.


Dave that is second pattern tunic. ie: no pleated pockets and scaloped flaps. Any date stamp?


The Field grade officer tunic sure looks tailored to fit him but does look alot like issue third model otherwise. Is that an officer bird or EM upgrade ?
I'm still on the fence...

This is great discussion...
Tim

[Bob Hritz]

DaveJ,

Your tunic appears to be a second pattern with the scalloped pocket flaps. A straight-on photo would make it easier to be positive.

Is the tunic dated?

Bob Hritz

[DaveJ]

Hi The pockets are not scalloped, but not straight either, yes I asked because it might fit the thread

[DaveJ]

close up

[Bob Hritz]

DaveJ,

I would say they are scalloped and it is a 2nd model tunic.

Bob Hritz

[NZMark]

I agree with Bob, 2nd pattern, although the 'pointing' is getting quite subtle.
Thanks for the pictures
Mark.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Dave

Nice second model, scalloped flaps, plain pockets for sure, not third model. dated '42 also. Thanks for better pics.

Tim

[NZMark]

Hi Team!
Dragging this old thread up again as I have found another photo of a soldier wearing a 3rd pattern tunic in late 1942.
Here's the link -
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...18#post2640918
This one's dated two days before the one of the 501st officer, 19/12/42.
Any thoughts?
Regards,
Mark.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Mark

Great photo dated Sep 19, 42. before departure for Tunisia confirms some early arrivals of 10th Pz Div (not DAK) did in fact have 3rd pattern tunics, really no doubts now...The 2nd pattern showed up in late '41 and makes sense the third would in late '42.

The units that were scraped together to save the Tunisian bridgehead were given any tropical clothing that was available at the time. So all three patterns of tunics were arriving in Tunisia along with both the early M40 caps and later w/o soutache. As stated earlier the officer in question is wearing a third pattern tunic (maybe tailored) while the others wear early versions.
Remember these men did not consider themselves DAK, but were proud to be under Von Arnim's command. The 501st Tiger Bn operated with 10 Pz Div which arrived in Tunisia in two parts. A Bn from 7th Pz Regt, along with 69th Pz Gr Regt, & Recon Bn & 90th Art Regt support.,,,then, the other Bn 7th Pz Regt & another PzGr Regt (cant remember 86?) along with the Flak Bn & self propelled Art & some Stg IIId. Operating as two Kampgruppes angaged and defeated the Americans at Tebessa, Dec 2, 1942. So in action just a few days after arrival. 10 Pz operated in two Kampgruppes for some time...including Kasserine Pass

Just shows again the rules really did not apply in North Afrika.
That is one of the fascinating things about the North African Campaign is all the adaptations and variations each side had to do, to wage war in the desert.


with regards
Tim

[NZMark]

Thanks Tim,
Your information is appreciated
By the way, he does not have skulls on the tunic's lapels, if anyone is wondering (Tim!)
So -
Hiagol 19.12.42
zum ewigen Andenken
ihr Afrika Kämpfer
Obergefr ???? Gloch
25666.

Hiagol 19.12.42 To the eternal memory her Africa fighter Obergefr???? Gloch 25666.
I hope that's not a death card style dedication...
Mark.

[vonStubben]

Recently Acquired 3rd Pattern Tunic

After a recent trade for this very salty third pattern tropical tunic with a fellow forum member I decided to do more research regarding the wear of third pattern tunics in North Africa. This interest stems from the fact that when received it was quite obvious that an "AFRIKA" cufftitle had once been attached to the left sleeve. In looking carefully at the sleeve it was quite easy to see each and every stitch mark from where such a CT had once been attached and what I found to be VERY convincing that such a CT had been affixed to the sleeve were the individual letters A-F-R-I-K-A, along with the palms, actually indented and well settled INTO the material from the embroidery of the lettering. Since this tunic has NEVER seen a cleaning since it's capture, and it's numerous blood (yes, it is definately blood) and mud/dirt staining, I have been inclined to think it actually had an AFRIKA CT in place so I attached a like conditioned CT following the exact stitching pattern using original thread to replace the missing CT as I don't believe that a "tempory" post war application of a CT would have allowed for the settling of the embroidery into the sleeve fabric the way it did.

In following the history of this tunic I can tell you that it was originally found by a well known and respected forum member (cloth collector) who has told me that a CT was not on it when he discovered it some years ago. From that collector this tunic went to another collector who recently died and the tunic was then purchased by the forum member I got it from. This member also says it had no CT in place when he first acquired it but that it had Panzer boards put on it by the fellow collector who died.

I am strongly inclined to believe that the photo of the Officer wearing a third pattern tunic which started off this thread was indeed wearing it in 42 when the picture says it was taken, and that of course helps prove the wear of 3rd pattern tunics IN North Africa.

Unfortunately for us my tunic only has an RBN number in it with no manufacture date. The reason for no size or date stamps being in this tunic is the fact that this one had a paper size tag attached to the bandage pocket (assertained by the evidence left there from each corner of this tag having been stitched there). I can say too that each of the buttons of this tunic are marked "JFS 42", and feel that this helps to date the tunic's year of manufacture.

One other thing I find quite interesting as well is the fact that both my tunic, and the one being worn in the picture, both have their left upper pocket out of allignment with that on the right. They both clearly show that the top L pockets were factory applied in this position (one half being made by one person and the other by another before being joined) and this is not the first period photo of a third pattern tunic being worn with this annomally that I have seen.

So with this said, what are your thoughts?

Regards,

Chuck

[vonStubben]

Side by side and bandage pocket where size tag was located

[vonStubben]

Another photo from this very thread showing the misalignment of the left upper pocket compared to the right.