German textile laboratory of Hans Flieger

[Drew Wright]

I am curious if anyone has had any experience with the outfit known as the textile laboratory of Hans Flieger. The militaria dealer N&T Global Trading has some of their items "certified" as to period materials and construction by them, and I'm wondering how reliable this is and what the pitfalls of this service may be. I have to admit that at first glance this looks like a positive deal, but if so, wouldn't everyone be doing it?

Thanks,

Drew

[Shawn Southern]

Drew:

Hans Flieger!!??? Really!?

Does N&T provide a report on the fabric analysis. I'm not sure what a textile lab could do to date fabric - surely too young for carbon dating,eh ? What would diffentiate 60 year old wool from 6 day old wool (since last I checked sheep now are pretty much the same genetically as sheep grazing the meadows 60 years ago)? Maybe they analyze the dyes? You've got my curiousity aroused. Maybe we should e-mail one of the fabric experts at the Smithsonian. I would suggest contacting N&T and ask for the qualifications of the "expert" and be most curious as to whether they provide a copy of the assays performed as well as a copy of the "analytical report" (hopefully Herr Flieger's report is something better than "Well, it looks old and smells old - must be old!")


Shawn

[Erich B.]

In addition, if you have, for example, an SS M-43 cap made from original overcoat material, with original insignia, sewn together with cotton thread, I don't see how any lab could tell you anything other than that the materials are period, pre-45.
Erich

[Shawn Southern]

Any forensics experts out there? Can microscopic fiber analysis yield any info regarding the age of the fiber????? Food for thought?

Shawn Southern

[Drew Wright]

Shawn and Eric:

You both raise some of the same questions I have.

Here's a link to an item that has this documentation. If it doesn't take you directly to it, scroll down until you see "Wehrmacht set of rare vehicle command flags." There is also a link that shows the documentation you'll receive, although not close enough to read it.
http://www.german-militaria.com/Unif...orms%20New.htm

Has anyone actually had an experience with this firm?

Drew

[Panzer]

Hi Guys,
just a look at these flags themselves makes me very suspicious! Forget the "textile examination".

Examination of the genuine article being used reveals many errors in design and materials. Look at the "fat" eagle on the Göering standard, and the horrible misshappen Swastika, not to mention the horrible little black swastikas around the outside!. The hanger for the Pour le Merit should be a ribbon, which hangs from AROUND the Swastika, not through it. The Führer standard was made with real metallic threads and embroidery, with very raised and solid higlights (the wreath looked almost solid). And once again, noticce the little fat bodied eagles?

Textile analysis is all well and good, but one only needs to look at these and consult period pictures to say.....therse are not for me!
Cheers, Wade.

[Shawn Southern]

I agree, Wade. I'm no expert but the eagle looks to have a bit of the old droopy eyelid syndrome, as if he's....hic!.... had one too many down at the corner pub.

Nonetheless, I'm still interested in Mr. Flieger, so I have e-mailed N&T to request additional information regarding his expertise and credentials. Stay tuned.

Adios,

Shawn

P.S. Maybe Mr. Flieger can answer that age old question about what phosphor is present in pink dyes used for panzer uniforms, headgear, etc.!

[Drew Wright]

I agree the flags look a bit odd, but those were the first items that I found had been "authenticated" through textile analysis. Here's another example of an W-SS general's visor cap:
http://www.german-militaria.com/Helm...mets%20New.htm

Again, my curiosity has more to do with the textile certification process and reliability than the specific items I've linked to as examples...

Thanks,

Drew

[Diane]

I've heard of this firm. I think Flieger was an RZM official. They can can be contacted at the address below:

Hans E. Flieger
Hindenburgallee 3
D-48703 Stadtlohn(Westfalen)
Germany

Home 011 [49](2563) 3230
Fax 011 [49](2563) 3230

Old cloth can be differentiated from "new" artificially aged cloth. Weave, content, dyes can all define when a fabric was made.

For instance German Wartime wool fabrics had a large cellulose (pulped wood) content - as well as rayon. Thats why old uniforms tend to be very scratcy. Nobody makes cloth like this any more.

[Shawn Southern]

Diane:

I'm interested in hearing more and you seem to be most knowledgeable on the subject. It's particularly fascinating that they added cellulose to the wool for wartime uniforms - I guess that some of those holes we've always assumed were caused by moths could have been termite-inflicted! All joking aside, can you recommend any good reference books on techniques/analyses for dating textiles, particularly of German origin?


Thanks,


Shawn Southern
Dallas, Texas

[Erich B.]

I believe I have some period source material that outlines the allowable percentages of new wool, used wool, and wood/cellulose fiber for uniform cloth at different periods between the early 30's and 1945. Re cellulose fiber in late war uniforms--I remember speaking with a German veteran years back, who told me that a current joke in 1944-45 was that you would be lucky to be issued a new uniform, because there was so much wood pulp in the cloth, if you fell into water you would float!
Erich