Panzer Pioniere

[Gordon Williamson]

I recently picked up a black/white twist piped Panzer Pioniere collar patch. The interesting thing is that on it came a small gilt Panzer skull.
It is absolutely untampered with, the gilding(anodised I think) being original to the zinc skull.

I'm guessing it was a shoulder strap skull for Kavallerie Regiment 5, Beats me how it came to be on a Panzer Pion. tab.

[jacques]

Hi
I've the same skull, silver plated. It was took off a POW but I don't know if it was dedicated to KR5 or PZ unit.
jacques

[Liontas]

Wow! Fantastic collar tab! That is something you only see once in a blue moon! I have seen one of those tunics before. When I saw it, I was not even sure what it was at first! Really impressive!

As for the gold skull....that's strange. Do you think it was maybe a personal pref for the individual?

[CSP]

Gordon:
You could certainly be correct in your thought that this skull may have been used on a shoulder strap. From your posting, I understand that the skull you reference is off to the left in the picture and that it was on the tab initially and replaced by the one currently showing on the tab?
In any case, I see no reason why it could not have also been used on a totenkopf tab. many of the earlier skulls used metals that did not hold a silver plating, was or coating well.
Here are a few pictures. The first is really the one that gets at the point. It is a tab on a second model panzer wrap (pink/rosa piped collar). The piece is dated 1939 and the skulls have lost virtually all their silver, making them look brass - which there is probably some of in their composition.
The latter pictures are a scan of a tab off my panzer pioneer wrap - this being the later style with the fleck piping (although the boards have the twist piping) and then a scan of a photo of a bit of the uniform.
Thanks for the posting:
Scott

[Gordon Williamson]

Scott,

Thanks for posting the images FABULOUS Pionier Wrapper!

I have seen early TKs which were steel, then copper plated to take a silver plated finish.

This one is a definite "gold" rather than brass color which I why I suspected it may have begun its life as a shoulder strap emblem for Kav Regt 5. I have been over it with a magnifying glass and there is not a trace of silvering anywhere. One of the prongs is missing so it was easy to slide it off the patch without causing any damage. Normally I would never risk bending open the prings on pieces like this.
This of course equally means it could have been added to the patch at any time, which is why I decided to replace it with a regular "silver" one.

Thanks again

Gordon

[CSP]

Gordon:
OK. That is new and good information for me. I frankly have not seen any/many of the 5th Cavalry insignia other than in BW pictures. Those I have seen for sale (straps) one just cannot be sure of.
The panzer warp is a favorite piece of mine - the KC is a 65/800 but not related to the tunic. I think I have traced about a half dozen panzer pioneer KC winners through various references - all officers/most junior officers, so it seemed like a reasonable display to put together.

You are welcome.
Scott

[Panzer]

Hi guys, Here are my Panzer pioneer wrap tabs. This uniform and cap belonged to Leutnant Günter Frank of Br.Kol.B.Pz.Pi.Btl.19 (Bridging Column 'B' Panzer Pioneer Battalion 19....which was with the 19th Panzer Division)The uniform is from the family and came with two other schirmützes, a service tunic and a tropical tunic.

It's the earlier silver/black twist piping. The interesting thig is that the original pink piped panzer collar tabs are still machine sewn UNDERNEATH the Pz Pi tabs! They simply removed the skulls, sewed the pioneer tabs over the top and then put the skulls back! Skulls are the standard ones that would have come with the panzerjacke.

Cheers! Wade.

[CSP]

Wade:
Tremendous as usual - glad to finally see it after hearing about it a couple months back. How did you discover the underneath? Just ny inssspection? or was there a story that led you there?
Note how all of these that surface are company grade officer rank. I'd be skeptical of anything higher than a Hauptmann.
Scott

[Panzer]

Hi Scott,
the tabs underneath were discovered simply when inspecting the sewing on of the tabs. There are machine sewing threads behind the collar...but the Pz. Pi. tabs were hand sewn on....we thought...why?...lift the edge of the tab and there is the rose-pink waffenfarbe underneath! Bingo! Certainly a nice suprise!

As far as rank goes....really there is no reason why something higher wouldn't be discovered in existance. I have found generally that the higher the rank the more likely the survival of the man's effects. Especially senior armoured officers who spent more time in Service Dress than the vehicle uniform.

By the way....you're doing a great job and this section of the forum is friendly and informative...I'm enjoying the chat a lot!
Cheers, Wade.

[CSP]

Wade,
Thanks for the kind words - hope we can keep it that way.
I thoroughly enjoy seeing your panzer items. Agree that higher ranks' belongings are more likely to have survived. I guess my point about the Panzer Pioneers is that the units were restricted to a company per battalion (within the division) that were truely armored up and thus, likely to be wearing the black wraps (I suspect that the field grey wraps were used more extensively within the battalions as a whole). Thus, it would be a rare find indeed to see a black wrap with field grade officer (major and above) insignia. I do not think I have seen this in photos and have certainly not seen any in anyone's collection.
Anyway, back to yours - what a unique piece with the doubled up tabs. I like that the tabs on yours use the twist piping, which I think was more commonly seen.
Scott

[Panzer]

Hi Scott,
thanks for your words and observations too...I appreciate it!

On the rank thing with Pz Pioneer, I see your point. I do have a picture here in a book of an Oberstleutnant Pz.Pi. with a grey assault gun wrap on and black/silver twist piping around his collar litzen.A very odd combination! The picture is from his soldbuch (he was a battalion commander). I guess the upshot is that it's possible but (as you say) not probable. My fellow was in the 'B' bridging column...so was probably the unit commander of that.

Cheers! Wade.

[CSP]

Wade:
Great information. I believe more and more every time I look in to this subject of panzer pioneers that the unusual is the usual...and hardly any two seem the same. There are a lot of examples of the same kinds of carte blanche practices in the US Army, so soldiers certainly have apropensity toward such. I'd conclude that in wartime one can even display even more indivisuality. It is great how more and more information on panzer pioneers is coming to light. Perhaps some day we should collaborate and try document. About 5 years ago I cam across some interesting panzer pioneer photos in a Japanese publication. Stuff creeps out of the woodwork, doesn't it?
Scott