Panzer denim HBT trousers

[Langemark]

Could these be the new generation of French made fakes ?. I would like to see a better picture of the weave ,both front and reverse.
That would help rest your mind.
Best Regards
Pierre-yves

Exactly, Pierre-Yves, when I wrote about "convincing fake HBT trousers" I was thinking about the French HSC/Caravano produced fakes. These fakes are realistic in the way that they exhibit good quality features, silky lining, convincing buttonholes, etc.. The most evident problem is the wrong quality and color of the HBT : sloppy and dull grayish material.

As requested, below is a close-up on the HBT of the discussed Panzer trousers (at left = reverse and at right = obverse). Please compare it with original and fake or post-war HBT.

Best,
Mark

[Mike Davis]

Interesting trousers. Posting a few shots of another example believed original for comparison purposes. Some differences noted: buttons, buttonholes, lining materials, markings... Perhaps the comparative photos will be helpful. Apologies for the images; camera seems to have 'difficulty' with certain lining materials.

[Mike Davis]

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[Mike Davis]

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[Mike Davis]

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[Mike Davis]

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[Mike Davis]

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[Soldat de Fer]

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Hello

From Mike pictures ,you can clearly see the difference between the front (the Hering bone) and back weaving (plain). As far as I know ,no fakers have been able to reproduce it (so far) which is a great thing for us collectors. So Mike , I would say that your pants are 100% original HBT ,even with these weird looking button key holes.
The weaving ,is to me ,the best and easiest way to determine originality or fake.
Hope this will help.
Best Regards
Pierre-Yves

[Soldat de Fer]

Exactly, Pierre-Yves, when I wrote about "convincing fake HBT trousers" I was thinking about the French HSC/Caravano produced fakes. These fakes are realistic in the way that they exhibit good quality features, silky lining, convincing buttonholes, etc.. The most evident problem is the wrong quality and color of the HBT : sloppy and dull grayish material.

As requested, below is a close-up on the HBT of the discussed Panzer trousers (at left = reverse and at right = obverse). Please compare it with original and fake or post-war HBT.

Best,
Mark

Hello Mark
I would like to hear more opinions, from more advanced collectors than me, but from these pictures ,I am unfortunately convinced that ,these are indeed the French made fake. I don't like the buttons key hole ,the color is typical of the "HSC " made fakes. I have 7 original HBT tunics and only 2 pair of pants ,they all ( the originals) exibit the same features and more important ,the same weaving. I did purchased one of these HBT fakes ( sold and bought as such) ,last year just to see how they are made ,it is in mint ( made yesterday) condition and it displays ,the exact same features ,as yours..
May I ask where you got them from ?
Mark ,I really wish I was wrong.
Hope this will help you.
Best Regards
Pierre-Yves

[Langemark]

Mike, I greatly appreciate that you took the time to post some pictures of your nice Panzer HBT trousers.
Like Pierre-Yves I like all the features on your example. The straight stitched buttonholes are surely not a problem and are perfectly done (these are more common on Waffen-SS clothing). I also like the RFNr marking beginning with a 1/xxxx/xxx. I suppose the real HBT color is greener than on your pictures (as they were visibly taken in daylight).

Switching to the example I posted, I took my pictures with a flashlight and tried as much as possible to render the exact color of the HBT, that is to say the textbook “reed-green” color. I compared the HBT-weave with two absolutely original and nearly mint examples (but from different manufacturers) of the HBT Panzer jacket : the color and weave match perfectly with that of the discussed trousers. Beside that, I confirm that the color and weave is far away from the HSC and other fakes I have seen.
So, could this be a new run of fake HBT, newly made trousers with original HBT… or simply 100 % original trousers ?

I want to make clear that I do not try to defend the trousers I posted but that I only want to learn. An “in depth” discussion on this subject will surely be benefic for all of us,

Thanks again to all of you,
Mark

P.S. : Yes Pierre-Yves, there is a small “story” behind these trousers, but I systematically prefer not to take it into account in order to only focus on the piece itself.

[J Melvin]

Although a white set, here's a set of HBT panzer that I had not long ago for review. Both the jacket and trousers were believed to be reproduction. May want to compare some of their features as well.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=HBT

[francis006]

Salut Mark ,

It's the problem with the new generations of VG fakes . The first that arrive on the market are always a problem for collectors
I don't know if yours are good or bad but i have early types that have the same features shown on Mike's pants . Yours have some differences that trouble me a little ( late war features ??)
Here is a pic if it can help (belt is a pz type)

A bient******244;t ,
Francis

[francis006]

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[Mike Davis]

Hello,

I am currently being offered this pair of mint Panzer HBT trousers. However, I am rather unfamiliar with this rare type of trousers and I didn’t find any detailed pictures or examples in collections to compare with. That’s why I would appreciate to get some information and have a discussion with collectors worldwide who are more knowledgeable on the subject or have similar trousers in their collection.

Most features are quite encouraging : correct silky-smooth HBT, correct weave, correct color, several different types of HBT fabric used in hidden places (pockets and slits), flawless construction, perfect shape, long and tall “Panzer” size, the web belt and the ankle tapes are textbook, interesting and infrequently seen is the late war RBNr beginning with a “9/xxxx/xxxx”.
At first sight, the fully identical light gray cotton twill lining (waistband, pockets and ankle reinforcements) looked suspect to me, but I must admit that it is not that uncommon on late-war trousers.
My main concerns go to the buttonholes that seem rather atypical in construction (however all do have the inner strengthening thread).

Many thanks for your replies and comments,

Mark

Anyway, I will let the pictures explain better all the details :
01 : Front upper part

Mark, I forwarded your images to a most advanced collector whose opinion I value highly. He has a set of trousers identical to yours, to include same RBNr, same size, buttons, etc. plus a portion of the issue paper tag. He has had them a number of years. His assessment from the photos is that your trousers are of original war-time manufacture. Regards, MD

[Soldat de Fer]

Mark, I forwarded your images to a most advanced collector whose opinion I value highly. He has a set of trousers identical to yours, to include same RBNr, same size, buttons, etc. plus a portion of the issue paper tag. He has had them a number of years. His assessment from the photos is that your trousers are of original war-time manufacture. Regards, MD

Ok ,I am not sure about all this and I am getting confused.
But ,same markings ,same size , identical features !? what are the chances of that? I am still not convinced. I would like to see a picture of that lable portion. I have not seen the new generation of HBT fakes , but I am sure that they improved them !!! .
I don't want to make any body upset here ,as I am new. ,but ,If these pants were offered to me ,my gut feeling would say ,too good to be true.
Regards
Pierre-Yves