Flavor of the week Piped Panzer Tunic

[Scott A. Hess]

Awesome Jim..you should be sleeping quite comfortably now! I dont think it gets much better than this..YOu can find the skulls..I have a late war panzer wraparound with officer boards..and I think it looks prettycool espcially since he has a matching Officers M43..unissued pants..and is a low ranking GD officer! I would love to have a piped jacket like yours one day..the pink piping just makes the impression so much more sexy!

[CSP]

Phil:
Like you, I have always been intrigued by the occasional uniform that has the larger paint stamped markings on the cloth, here and there...

Some of the intrigue was removed when I discovered a period book on the manufacture of uniforms by a large maker. The book has a picture of cut uniform parts stacked on a table and an employee standing with a can of paint in front of a wooden rack, with sequenced wood stamps - they seem to be of various stamp sizes - and on each stamp are raised, carved numbers. Clearly the worker is stamping these pieces of cloth with the block stamps after dipping them in paint...as the picture is colorized, there may be some loss of true color, but the paint can contains a white-gray paint.

The caption reads:

"Auch feldgrau Stoffe unterscheiden sich durch Farbabweichungen. Damit nur gleichgefarbte Teile zusammengesetzt werden, stempelt man die einzelnen Lagen mit Kennziffern."

Which in my lousy German to English translation means that:

"Also field-grey materials differ by color deviations. So that only similarly colored parts are put together, one marks the individual pieces with indices."

So...some reasonably factual evidence to say these in fact were done at the production location and not the depot, perhaps. At least I think this is somewhat conclusive and has done a lot to kill my own curiosity.
What do you think??/

[phild]

Scott, I agree that sometimes (maybe always) the manufacturers would paint stamp the feldgrau wool parts to match up colors. We have also seen the various makers marks and names paint stamped on the occasional reverse side of wool uniform parts, at least sometimes on the ones without much wear and washing! About 20 years ago Dave Delich showed me a Black Allge. SS greatcoat in his collection that had some fairly large paint stamped Black Widow spiders stamped in several places on the inside wool...it was very interesting!

The stamped numbers that are shown in photo number 11 of this thread are on the lining of the inside left panel pocket. I have seen similar numbers on the other few examples of this make wrap that I have examined. The placement and orientation of the numbers has always been roughly the same. This leads me to believe that they were stamped after the wrap was made.

Given that the font is the same as the size markings, I tend to believe that the numbers were stamped by the depot. I have long believed that the makers did not stamp anything into the uniforms as far as lining type ink stampings, but rather the markings were copied at the depot from the cardboard tag that was attached to the item by the maker.

[djpool]

Heres the picture Scott P. was referring to. I'm not sure what the purpose of the numbers on the wrap I posted are meant for. I've also seen what I call bolt lot numbers on HBT too. wr Jim

[phild]

The piping is certainly not felt, you are right. It appears to be rather loosly woven wool with a fine thin nap wraped around a white cord center. Would you agree, having it to see personally? I can not say that I have seen this exact type piping on other piped wraps, but I doubt that I have had my hands on more than 20 real ones (piped) in my lifetime of collecting. If I had examined say 2000 or so, then I would say that I had seen enough of a representation to have a better basis for an opinion.

Where I am with all of this is as follows:

1. The wrap is original, if someone can convince me otherwise I will start selling off my collection tomorrow.

2. The piping on the collar and tabs match each other and are distinct.

3. The piping on the collar has been on there since the wrap was made, therefore the tabs are original to the wrap as well.


I should add that the fact that the belt support straps have been cut out of this wrap is a real plus in my opinion. This was very often done (almost always) when these were used by officers. It was also done when EM or NCOs OWNED thier wraps (not often for EMs) and especially when the wraps were reserved for best dress garmets. The condition of your wrap is consistant with one designated for such use and it further backs up that this was possibly/probably an officer's wrap.

[phild]

Heres the picture Scott P. was referring to. I'm not sure what the purpose of the numbers on the wrap I posted are meant for. I've also seen what I call bolt lot numbers on HBT too. wr Jim

Yes, now that you mentioned it, I recall having seen the paint stamp type markings in a number of Afrika uniforms that I have seen, so it was done on cotton uniform fabric as well. Neverthelss, I don't think that the black ink stamped number in the pocket of your wrap have anything to do with the fabric markings, either by the material maker or the uniform manufacturer.

[djpool]

The piping is certainly not felt, you are right. It appears to be rather loosly woven wool with a fine thin nap wraped around a white cord center. Would you agree, having it to see personally? I can not say that I have seen this exact type piping on other piped wraps, but I doubt that I have had my hands on more than 20 real ones (piped) in my lifetime of collecting. If I had examined say 2000 or so, then I would say that I had seen enough of a representation to have a better basis for an opinion.

Where I am with all of this is as follows:

1. The wrap is original, if someone can convince me otherwise I will start selling off my collection tomorrow.

2. The piping on the collar and tabs match each other and are distinct.

3. The piping on the collar has been on there since the wrap was made, therefore the tabs are original to the wrap as well.


I should add that the fact that the belt support straps have been cut out of this wrap is a real plus in my opinion. This was very often done (almost always) when these were used by officers. It was also done when EM or NCOs OWNED thier wraps (not often for EMs) and especially when the wraps were reserved for best dress garmets. The condition of your wrap is consistant with one designated for such use and it further backs up that this was possibly/probably an officer's wrap.

Phild,

The originality of the basic tunic isn't being questioned by anyone. So no need to burn any Panzer Jackets just yet .

To tell the truth I've never looked at piping in detail before.I've probably seen less than a dozen good piped wraps and if the jacket was good and the piping was well applied I didn't look any further.

The white you see in the scans isn't visible to the naked eye. I'm pretty sure the areas that pop up as white are areas where the dye absorbation wasn't as concentrated. I scanned a lot of HBT splinter camo material and you get the same effect. Its almost the same as putting it under a magnifying glass the higher the magnification the less color you see.

I looked at the construction of the piping on my tunic and heres what I see:

a.Have the black cloth on top
b. Have a single strip of pink cloth thats folded over to form the rounded shape. I don't know if theres a core inside.
c. In certain places I can see a very thin bias cloth
d.then theres the black bottom.

Parts a through d are held in place and sewed together by a single machine stitch. then at the corners there is an additional hand stitch.

I don't know if this is correct or not. I'm certainly in a learning mode on this aspect of uniform tailoring.

WR jim

[CSP]

Jim- thanks for posting the picture I was referring to.

Phil - I think I sort of switched subjects on you in my post on the paint stampings. As I reread your initial comment on the inside pocket stamps and your reply, I see I did.

Little reason not to go with your theory on the pocket stamp. Your comment on the paper tag providing the depot a refernce from which to mark the uniform has always been a solid theory. It would seem to make sense - if one accepts the theory - that the inside pocket stamp might be some kind of depot acceptance or count stamp in addition to the marking process...but on the other hand, that is also a curious idea given many uniforms - the preponderance - do not have this pocket stamp...so why would it be there consistently on a known manufacturer's uniform and maybe not others from the same depot? I have often wondered if these depots were in one single location...ie, one big Erfurt warehouse, or arrayed around the major city...but this is yet another topic.

I have not translated the entire book I have, but the task is not too daunting if I ever try. A chapter toward the end deals with the final examination. What I translate at a glance is that the finished product underwent a thorough control inspection at the factory. Once it passed all points, it clearly states the uniform received the "Herstellefirma"...the makers mark for us collectors. Afterward, the uniforms were transported to the Bekleidunsamten of the Heer or Luftwaffe, etc. So...the "quartermaster" of the various services. It is possible that this was the point the remaining stamps were made and also included a stamp that earmarked ithem for a particular depot. Maybe not.

[phild]

[quote=ScottPritchett]
."..but on the other hand, that is also curious idea given many uniforms - the preponderance - do not have this pocket stamp...so why would it be there consistently on a known manufacturer's uniform and maybe not others from the same depot? I have often wondered if these depots were in one single location...ie, one big Erfurt warehouse, or arrayed around the major city...but this is yet another topic.

IA chapter toward the end deals with the final examination. What I translate at a glance is that the finished product underwent a thorough control inspection at the factory. Once it passed all points, it clearly states the uniform received the "Herstellefirma"...the makers mark for us collectors. "


I always enjoy learning new things about this stuff and with the information Scott provided above, I believe that I may have. The Makers name stamp was always something of a puzzle for me because I had assumed that they were Depot applied as well as the size markings. The inconsistantcy is that the Makers name stamp is often darker or lighter
than the rest of the stampings and sometimes even in different color ink. The information that Scott cites makes perfect sense in that the makers name stamp would have been applied by the maker. Also interesting is the fact that often maker's names or Rbnumbers are also stamped on the inside of the left inside pocket. These can be found in both the top panel of the inside pocket as well as the bottom lining panel of the pocket, like where the numbers are found. I could see that these numbers, inside the pocket, could also have been maker applied rather than Depot applied. This makes more sense in that I have only seen them on wraps of this make.


I have never seen or heard of a Schmidt&Zoltish pz wrap dated before 1938. Given that Munich was not a major hub of pre-war pz units I would not be surprised if they did not start making the pz wrap any earlier than 38 or so. Most all Pz wraps that I have seen are marked to the Berlin, Erfurt or B.II (I suspose this to be a second Berlin Depot or East Prussia as makers from both areas have shown up marked in B.II.___items) and few from any of the others...including Munich.

[CSP]

Phil:
Now that was a cool response...and I am appreciating the discussion. Thanks for that. I will try arrange my time this weekend to translate the particular chapter on final inspection to see if it contains any more useful facts. My curiosity is heightened by some reasonable discussion for a change...unlike some of the earlier garbage of this thread and definitely that currently on-going in one other Panzer uniform thread.

This is kind of like "CSI Erfurt"...fun to piece together with facts versus speculation, but still frustrating in that there are incomplete facts.

Thanks again, more to follow I hope...

[djpool]

Phil:
Now that was a cool response...and I am appreciating the discussion. Thanks for that. I will try arrange my time this weekend to translate the particular chapter on final inspection to see if it contains any more useful facts. My curiosity is heightened by some reasonable discussion for a change...unlike some of the earlier garbage of this thread and definitely that currently on-going in one other Panzer uniform thread.

This is kind of like "CSI Erfurt"...fun to piece together with facts versus speculation, but still frustrating in that there are incomplete facts.

Thanks again, more to follow I hope...

Scott and Phil,

I really appreciate all this cool info you've been passing on. I'm really interested in the German wartime clothing industry.It just really surprises me that after all these years how little we know. Theres not even a half way decent list of known depots out there, let alone sub depots.

I'm very intrigued by the stamping on the inside of the pocket. The only thing I feel comfortable saying about it-is it was probably done by the manufacturer. Bolt number doesn't make sense, who cares if the internal components were mismatched. Maybe Phils right that its a inventory number. I wish we could find a similar wrap with the paper tag, might provide some clues, since 1 or 2 tags seemed to follow the item all the way to the depot.

Of course another area thats peeked my interest is how was the piping actually applied. There were some questions raised about mine.Still trying to figure out what the truth is. I realize this might be a secret better left unsaid.

I look forward to learning more.

Scott unfortunately to many threads that descend into personal attacks attract the most attention. With so much still to be learned seems like a waste of time.

WR jim

[CSP]

yup...sometimes the "facts" promoting or trashing reputations are about as useful as the comments for or against the item.

[Scott A. Hess]

I've learned Oddles from this forum..but from this thread in particular..I've been going over some jackets..and panzer wraps..both heer and ss..and amazed at the areas in which the bolt markings similar to those in the colorized Peek and Clopenburg picture are found...often in obsecure areas..many times quite obvious from the consruction of the garmet that they were done prior to the individual pieces being assembled..they run the gammet from black..to light yellow.to white..also found some neat markings which are I believe true Logo markings from the textile company that wove the material...even today they will often place a textile manufacture stamp somewhere on a bolt..and I've located several of these..they do stand out better of course on the black items...I have also encountered what I believe 100 percent fake garments now incorporating these features..its really tough at times to know what to discuss and what not to discuss..wanting to discuss items and be helpful..but also mindful that fakers follow these forum....and I know there is a debate as to what extent fakers will go to incorporate all the smaller details into garments....some say not..some yes..so..its tough...best however to er on the side of caution..

[djpool]

I've learned Oddles from this forum..but from this thread in particular..I've been going over some jackets..and panzer wraps..both heer and ss..and amazed at the areas in which the bolt markings similar to those in the colorized Peek and Clopenburg picture are found...often in obsecure areas..many times quite obvious from the consruction of the garmet that they were done prior to the individual pieces being assembled..they run the gammet from black..to light yellow.to white..also found some neat markings which are I believe true Logo markings from the textile company that wove the material...even today they will often place a textile manufacture stamp somewhere on a bolt..and I've located several of these..they do stand out better of course on the black items...I have also encountered what I believe 100 percent fake garments now incorporating these features..its really tough at times to know what to discuss and what not to discuss..wanting to discuss items and be helpful..but also mindful that fakers follow these forum....and I know there is a debate as to what extent fakers will go to incorporate all the smaller details into garments....some say not..some yes..so..its tough...best however to er on the side of caution..

Hi Scott,

I've always loved seeing those numbers used to match fabric colors.Of course your right that the repo guys have caught on. We'll never stop the fakes.We just need to figure better methods to identify the originals.The day will come when collectors go to shows carrying high power microscopes and chemical testing kits .WR Jim

[B. N. Singer]

I have never seen or heard of a Schmidt&Zoltish pz wrap dated before 1938. Given that Munich was not a major hub of pre-war pz units I would not be surprised if they did not start making the pz wrap any earlier than 38 or so.

I am quite hesitant to make this post for fear of adding to the “garbage” that has already been dumped, but I will “spew forth” one last time on this thread.

Very interesting observation “Phild” but I guess you will be Surprised, I have.

This manufacturer was producing Pz wraparounds long before this time (1938).

B. N. Singer