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    #1

    Germany's textile Industry Part I Depots

    Last week while discussing the originality of some Panzer Tabs the subject of the German textile industry came up. The discussion centered around cottage industries and the impact of the allied strategic bombing campaign on uniform production. From my own research, prior discussions on types of fabrics available, sewing techniques etc; it appears that there's still a lot to be learned on the subject.
    I thought maybe as a group we could try to sort out the truth on how the German textile industry (in regards to uniform production) operated. This would be a major research effort and might take several years to collect enough data to put together a meaningful article that could be used by collectors.
    Here's an outline of topics that I think would be meaningful, please feel free to add additional topics. At this point I'm only focusing on the Army though certain topics would apply to all services.
    1. The Army depot system:
    a. Doctrinal operations-Most of that info is available in TM E 30-451 Handbook on German Military Forces
    b. Location of depots and depot stamps. I have attached what research I have to date and as you can see there are a lot of gaps.
    c. Examples of Depot stamps and paper tags from known original items. Also the identity of the item to determine what kinds of clothing was processed.
    d. Detailed location of depots and whether they were bombed during the war. I haven't found anything during my research that I can use. This would probably entail forum members in Europe to locate the depots and talk to locals about its wartime activity. It would be great if we could get current pictures of the depots if they still exist.
    2. The contract system- When the Army or depot contracted out uniforms to be made, what specific information did they provide to the manufacturer.
    3. List of manufacturers with examples of how they marked the clothing; as well as types of clothing.
    4. The Manufacturing process
    a. What fabrics, types of threads and hardware were available/used?
    b. How were uniforms cut and sewn etc.
    c. How did the LAGO system operate?
    I hope other members are interested in solving some of the mysteries surrounding Germanys' wartime textile industry.
    Here's my first topic for discussion and assistance.
    Army clothing depots- HEERESBEKLEIDUNS******196;MTER ( H.B.A.)
    From what I've been able to research here's a list of Army Clothing Depots. I also attached a map of the German Wehrkreis organization with the depots overlaid onto them. I haven't found any reference that shows abbreviations for German cities/towns during the war. I'm sure its out there and would really resolve some of the conflicting information on Depot locations.
    I've broken down what I know into three categories.
    a. Known/confirmed depots with letter code. Green star
    b. Possible Depot with letter code. The actual depot code has been attributed to more than one city or could be a depot supporting another service. Yellow star
    c. Either a depot code with no city or a city with no code. Status unknown. Red Star

    KNOWN/CONFIRMED DEPOTS
    B = Berlin
    E = Erfurt
    F = Frankfurt
    H = Hannover
    K = Konigsberg
    M = Munich
    W = Wien
    P=Posen
    A=Aachen
    POSSIBLE ARMY DEPOTS
    D = Dresden Possible a sub depot
    WBR = This is UNKNOWN at this point.
    WB = Wiesbaden or Wurzburg. Per note below WURZBURG is the correct depot.
    X = Xanten Might be a LW Depot
    Sl = Salzburg
    St = Stettin I'm fairly confident Stettin is correct. I have examples of items made by a Stettin firm with the St. Stamp.
    St= Stuttgart I have seen examples of items made in Karlsruhe with a M Munich stamp which makes me think that there wasn't a depot in Stuttgart.
    M.L. = Metz ( Lothringen )
    UNKNOWN ARMY DEPOTS: During my research I found indications that these might be depot locations. I have no other information.
    T= There are examples of this stamp being used but nothing to indicate a city. The only city that might have a depot that starts with a "T" is Thorn.
    ? = Munster (Westphalia )
    ? = Neisse
    ? = Strasburg
    ? = Thorn
    ? = Warsaw
    ? = Ludwigsburg Possible a sub depot
    ? = Marburg
    ? = Litzmannstadt/ Lodz- I don't think that there is actually a depot here. I've seen items manufactured in Litzmannstadt with a P depot stamp.
    ? = Graudenz Possible a sub depot
    ? = Hamburg Possible a sub depot
    ? = Kaiserslautern
    ? = Kalisch
    Variations in Depot Stamps:
    I have noticed a couple of variant depot stamps
    a. M43 YEAR H: I have only seen this on a few 2d Model HBT Wraps. It has been explained as (Model/type of wrap) year Hannover Depot
    b. B II(Year) on the same line. The bold number is probably the size but could indicate a secondary depot. Within the Wehrkries system a number of cities are indicated by (CITY NAME) I-X. It's possible that depots adopted this procedure.
    c. BA (Bekleidungsamt) immediately followed by the depot code i.e. BAF for Bekleidungsamt Frankfurt.
    As you can see there's a whole lot we don't know about the depots. Maybe with your help we can fill in some of the gaps.
    I hope anyone with an interest in German uniforms will contribute.
    WR Jim
    Attached Files
    Last edited by djpool; 03-17-2006, 10:07 PM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Good job..great reading!

    Comment

      #3
      Originally posted by Scott A. Hess
      Good job..great reading!
      Thanks Scott,

      Now if I can get everyone to check their tunics and look at depot stamps that have a manufacturer stamp; I'm hoping I can identify some more of the depots. Or better yet maybe someone has a wartime listing of depots.

      I'm working articles on threads/burn tests and the operations of the clothing depots from a "big picture" perspective. Might have those done in "draft" within the next few weeks.

      WR Jim

      Comment

        #4
        DJ

        I use to live in Wurzburg and the official abbreviation for the city is still WB (with the W&B attached together). Wiesbaden, Mainz and Frankfurt were all "F" depot.

        Wurzburg had a massive depot complex that included most of the cities in the area like Ulm, Nurenberg, Kitzegen etc.

        I accually worked on the old Faulenburg depot near WB which was one of the depots.

        Steve
        Last edited by airborne_steve; 03-17-2006, 09:35 PM.

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by airborne_steve
          DJ

          I use to live in Wurzburg and the official abbreviation for the city is still WB (with the W&B attached together). Wiesbaden, Mainz and Frankfurt were all "F" depot.

          Wurzburg had a massive depot complex that included most of the cities in the area like Ulm, Nurenberg, Kitzegen etc.

          I accually worked on the old Faulenburg depot near WB which was one of the depots.

          Steve
          Steve,

          Thanks very much,now I can edit my info.I tried looking for the official city abbreviations and couldn't find anything on the net.Where did you get the Wurzburg city abbreviation?Jim

          Comment

            #6
            jim,

            It is kind of funny, but one way to find the official city abbreviation is by looking at auto license plates. Large capital cities like Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin have a single letter F, H & B etc, as the first digits of the license plates. Smaller regional cities have two letters, Wurzburg, with WB being the first digits of the license plates. Small cities outside of the jurisdiction of the regional cities would have three letters as their official city abbreviations.

            These abbreviations even extend to goods produced in these cities today.

            Guys from Germany could be a big help in this area.

            Steve
            • 1 like

            Comment

              #7
              [quote=airborne_steve]jim,

              It is kind of funny, but one way to find the official city abbreviation is by looking at auto license plates. Large capital cities like Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin have a single letter F, H & B etc, as the first digits of the license plates. Smaller regional cities have two letters, Wurzburg, with WB being the first digits of the license plates. Small cities outside of the jurisdiction of the regional cities would have three letters as their official city abbreviations.

              These abbreviations even extend to goods produced in these cities today.

              Guys from Germany could be a big help in this area.



              Hi Steve,

              I checked license plates early on but unfortunately not reliable. During the Third reich they didn't use city codes. I checked data prior to the wall coming down as well as current info and found the info doesn't match up, for example Wurzburg is WU. WBR doesn't even register. I know that the abbreviations changed over the years, its just a matter of finding the right code book. WR Jim
              <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

              Comment

                #8
                Jim, you are a scholar and a gentleman sir. I have a great respect for research and am reading this with interest. Will be interesting to see where this thread goes but this is a great beginning of an important area in the study of 3rd Reich Militaria.

                Best regards, Chris

                Comment

                  #9
                  Jim,

                  You are right that is not the official way of finding city codes but it is an unofficial way. Military/Logistics abbreviations will be slightly differnt than the modern civic abbreviations. True, Wurzburg is WU on their lisense but at Faulenburg depot, the wearhouse goods are marked WB.

                  Depot markings on tunics with WB are unusual because they have a line separating the upper half from the lower half, example:

                  45 45
                  _96_
                  71 64

                  I hope that helps?

                  Steve

                  P.S. I think WBr is for a depot in Czech? There was a thread on that depot some time ago.

                  Check this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=wbr
                  Last edited by airborne_steve; 03-18-2006, 04:03 AM.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    A very fascinating project, Jim. I've thought that one way to answer some of the questions regarding the actual manufacturing/sewing process of uniforms would be to ask the actual people who did the work. I think this has been overlooked, as I've never seen a reference cited to one of the factory workers. One area where this is especially noticable, in my opinion, is in helmet decal application. I think if one were to track down those who actually sewed the unifroms together and applied the insignia, then a number of questions could be answered, such as machine vs. hand sewn insignia; adherence to "regulations", or how much leway did workers actually practice; late war economy measures; and most importantly, the extent of "cottage industry" as opposed to larger factories.

                    There has to be some of these workers still alive. If one had the resources to run ads and contact old-people's homes, or perhaps tailor organizations, one would surely find some of these people. Of course, time is rapidly running out, so this would really be a "back burner" project, should someone choose to pursue it.

                    Just a thought, anyway.

                    Steve
                    ~ The true test of a democracy is how well it protects the rights of its least popular citizens. ~

                    ~ Never cross swords with an unworthy opponent. ~

                    Comment

                      #11
                      //
                      Last edited by judas; 04-06-2009, 03:55 PM.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by 90th Light
                        Jim, you are a scholar and a gentleman sir. I have a great respect for research and am reading this with interest. Will be interesting to see where this thread goes but this is a great beginning of an important area in the study of 3rd Reich Militaria.

                        Best regards, Chris
                        Hi Chris,

                        I doubt we'll get all the answers but every little bit helps.I hope this will encourage others to jump in. The real answers are probably sitting in some Archive in Germany, but every bit of information uncovered, stamp sent, manufacturer Identified etc moves us closer to putting the facts together.

                        WR Jim

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by airborne_steve
                          Jim,

                          You are right that is not the official way of finding city codes but it is an unofficial way. Military/Logistics abbreviations will be slightly differnt than the modern civic abbreviations. True, Wurzburg is WU on their lisense but at Faulenburg depot, the wearhouse goods are marked WB.

                          Depot markings on tunics with WB are unusual because they have a line separating the upper half from the lower half, example:

                          45 45
                          _96_
                          71 64

                          I hope that helps?

                          Steve

                          P.S. I think WBr is for a depot in Czech? There was a thread on that depot some time ago.

                          Check this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=wbr
                          Steve your on a roll. Two records set straight at least in my mind.The info on WBr was great. Haven't pinned down the city but at least now I know which country it was in.

                          WR Jim

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Steve Sherlock
                            A very fascinating project, Jim. I've thought that one way to answer some of the questions regarding the actual manufacturing/sewing process of uniforms would be to ask the actual people who did the work. I think this has been overlooked, as I've never seen a reference cited to one of the factory workers. One area where this is especially noticable, in my opinion, is in helmet decal application. I think if one were to track down those who actually sewed the unifroms together and applied the insignia, then a number of questions could be answered, such as machine vs. hand sewn insignia; adherence to "regulations", or how much leway did workers actually practice; late war economy measures; and most importantly, the extent of "cottage industry" as opposed to larger factories.

                            There has to be some of these workers still alive. If one had the resources to run ads and contact old-people's homes, or perhaps tailor organizations, one would surely find some of these people. Of course, time is rapidly running out, so this would really be a "back burner" project, should someone choose to pursue it.

                            Just a thought, anyway.

                            Steve
                            Hi Steve,

                            Last time I was living in Germany (5 years ago) I was fortunate enough to meet a tailor from that period. Unfortunately I didn't ask all the questions I should have. Now there is a lot of info out there about sewing machines and tailoring in general from that period.A lot of its so technically only a tailor could understand it. So its really a matter of collating all the data and translating it into collector speak.WR jim

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by judas
                              i have a few stamps if some one can take them. ss and army
                              Judas,

                              You or anybody else for that matter can send pics of depot stamps,manufacturers stamps, paper tags etc directly to my personal E mail at:

                              djpool@cox.net

                              I would appeciate it if you could ID the type of clothing it goes with ie M43 tunic.If you forget its not a problem.

                              WR Jim

                              Comment

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