Date of order for removal of skulls from tabs?

[WWIIBuff]

Can anyone tell me the date of the order calling for Sturmartillerie or Sturmgeschütz units to remove the skulls from the collar tabs on their wraps?

Even better, does anyone have detailed information on the complete order such as the date and the exact verbiage? And did this order also apply to other units that would sometimes wear wraps such as panzerjäger or panzergrenadier?

Thanks

[Laurent]

I' ve got...

Hello JohnK

I have the different AHM but not the possibility to send it...
I can say to you that the first official text about the "Feldgrauer Sonderbekleidung" (the Feldgrau Panzer uniform) is the HM 40 N° 684 from 29 of May 1940. This text introduce this uniform for Artillerie Einheiten s.Pak (Sfl) the first name of what we all call Sturmartillerie or Sturmgeschütz but in fact all these name had changed for the same type of unit during the war. To be short and to stay on your question. This first text clearly say that the Waffenfarbe (branch color) will be RED and the tab will be the same that Panzertruppen but without deathhead ! It was in 1940 and we know that this order will be far to be respected...
The HM 43 N° 134 from 30 of january 1943 say that Sturmartillere and Pak unit with Feldgrau uniform should used the standard Lizten with red or pink Waffenfarbe around... One more time the text forbidden the use of Panzer Skull .........
I will take a look for the later texts about railwway Guns and armoured Pak, Flak and Infantry Guns in Panzergrenadier and Infantry units as I forget the dates but it was the same thing, standard Litzen with main unit Waffenfarbe (green or white) and no skulls..

Sorry for my English ask for more if you need, I hope I help a little bit

Amitiés de Laurent

[WWIIBuff]

Sturmartillerie tabs

Thanks Laurent, this is very helpful information. I am going to copy your answer over to a thread I have going on the Photos forum.

I'm just curious, where do you find this type of information regarding these orders? Do you have a postwar reference book or is it something period made?

Thanks again!

[WWIIBuff]

Sturmartillerie

Hi Laurent,

I just re-read what you posted again and it made me think of another question. Do these orders differentiate between the StuG uniform and the StuG wrapper? Either in 1940 or 1943?

Since you are reading the actual text, is it possible the order is designed to keep the skulls off the regular field tunic? It sounds to me almost like the second order in 1943 was making this statement. But again I am not reading the actual text like you are able to do.


Thanks for helping with this clarification.

[Laurent]

Happy to help...

You are wellcome John!

The "Feldgrau Special Uniform" (Feldgrauer Sonderbekleidung in the period official text) is what we call the Panzer wrap and Panzer pants ! Far away from my documentation I don't want to say something wrong but I think that in the text wrap is call Feldbluse too like the standard 4 pockets tunic. You call it field tunic, it can't receive the Panzer collar tabs but I agree that there is a lot of period photos with wool or tropical one with ! In german Army there is regulation and men !
So the texts I give you above are really for Feldgrau wrap and nothing else !
I have the chance to have most of the AHM and some of the HV about uniforms and equipement. It is like a newspaper with 2 issue a month (not a general rule !). I have a copy of nearly all the front page of AHM (HV will come soon) with the list and the titles of orders and the copy of pages with orders in my field of interest ! But you can find too: organisation of units (KAN, KStN (TOE)) or weapon and ammunition, in fact all about a very big machine !

Amitiés de Laurent

[Laurent]

Feldjacke

I am sorry the name Feldbluse is only for the four pocket field tunic the black and Feldgrau Panzer wraps were called Feldjacke in the period texts !

Laurent

[CSP]

Laurent: will you PM me or email me, please?

[WWIIBuff]

skull removal

Thanks for the help Laurent. And thanks for the clarification between the two tunic names as well.

[Tim Miller]

Laurent,

Great information, you answered some questions I've been wondering about for a while now. Your English is just fine. Much better then my French. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions - especially when it's not your primary language. Take care.

Tim

[B. N. Singer]

Field gray wraparounds were being produced at the factory with skull insignias into 1941.

B. N. Singer

[Laurent]

C'est un plaisir !

Merci beaucoup Tim

Thank you very much you are wellcome ! I try to help if possible !
I don't have to much time this week-end but I took some to look in my files in fact just enought to realize that an AHM important from 1943 is lost in my mess it was the order about armored infantry guns and antitank guns in Panzergrenadier Infantry and Jager Regiments. I will try to find it soon because I think it is one of the main cause of great confusion !

Amitiés de Laurent