question about ranks

[Michael Kuligowski]

Gentleman !

some time a go I hada nice email conversation with Peter Whammond about names He used on His site for some rank chevrons - Stabsgefreiter and Stabs obergefreiter in particular...

conversation started here:
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H18154.html

to me its a stabsgefreiter patch.. but Peter calls it a OBERGEFREITER'S, and he calls two books that call this rank a obergefreiter (part of His email):
"H18154 OBERGEFREITER'S RANK CHEVRON. -One strap & one star is Obergefreiter. (Its a very common rank) -See Page 394 Uniform & Traditions on the German Army Vol 1. (Angolia) -See Page 40 German Army Uniform 1933-45 (Davis) "

Well.. I dont have Angolia vol1 and I sold Davis book (wasnt good enough..)

so what rank is this ?? all my collecting life it was obvius for me thats it is a STABS(star - function) GEFREITER (strap - rank) not a obergefreiter (two straps)



Second strap:
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H18054.html

Peter calls this one: OBERGEFREITER STABSGEFREITER'S RANK CHEVRON.

well... its a indeed obergefreiter with stabs function (star) - but why at the same time He is calling this rank GEFREITER ?? its like - obergefreiter-stabs-gefreiter - so what the heck is it finally
Peters explanation to me was that its in the books - which unfortunately I dont have:
"H18054 OBERGEFREITER/STABSGEFREITER'S RANK CHEVRON. -On this one It has to be listed as being possibly either Ober or a Stabs. The reason it is listed this way is because its impossible to say with 100% which it is. -If it was issued between 1921 to 1942.. It would be a Stabsgefreiter Then the rank structure changes -If it was issued between 1942 & 1945.. Its would be a Obergefreiter "

well.. in my termilogy this rank is called : STABS OBERGEFREITER .. so can somebody finally call this ranks with 100% accuracy - because its hard to believe for me that in books strap and star rank may be called a obergefreiter ?!?!?!

[Dave Suter]

Okay, here we go. The following is according to Angolia: The first patch - one chevron and a star is indeed for an Obergefreiter with more than 6 years of service. It was used all through the war. An Obergefreiter with less than 6 years service wore 2 chevrons. (Prior to 1936 there was no difference based on time in grade and the rank insignia was 3 chevrons for all).

The second patch, 2 chevrons and a pip, is for a Stabsgefreiter - period. That rank insignia was introduced in 1928 and was in effect until the end of the war. Promotion to that rank was discontinued in '34, but those holding it kept it (the rank and the insignia). Then in '42 it was re-introduced - same insignia, same title. (Technically, those promoted from '42 onward were called Strabsgefreiter neuer Art because the new Stabsgefreiter was in a different pay grade than the old Stabsgefreiter.)

After 1936 Obergefreiters with less than 6 years in service wore the 2 chevrons - more than six years one chevron and a pip. Two chevrons and a pip were always Stabsgefreiter and nothing else.

However, since nothing can ever be easy, Davis' reference does show that after 1942 there was no Stabsgefreiter rank and that the 2 chevrons and a pip was for an Obergefreiter with more than 6 years service, replacing the one chevron and a pip that Angolia states was used until the end of the war.

So, who is right? Given the amount of research that Angola did for his series (he frequently cites regulations), I would tend to go that route.

[Michael Kuligowski]

thanks Dave for all information !!!

[Dave Suter]

You are most welcome. The only way I can think of to resolve the 'who is right' question would be for one of the guys who collect pay books to find one where the guy was promoted to Stabsgefreiter in '43 or '44.

Think I'll start a thread over there......http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...90#post1092490

[Dave Suter]

Follow the link above for the results.....